generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

The Silent Generation, the Baby Boomer Generation, Generation-X, the Millennial Generation (or Generation-Y) and the Pivotal Generation (Generation Z)
shadow_cat60
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:26 am

generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by shadow_cat60 »

Hello people,


I have always been fascinated by generational theory and when I found this site, I was very pleased: I have always wanted to discuss such matters in a public forum. That being said, there is something I would like to bring up...and what I have to say is particularly directed at John. (Forgive me if I am not totally clear, but it is late where I am.)

I was born at the tail end of 1982, ergo, I consider myself Gen Y. Personally, I have read a lot of articles describing my generation as entitled fools who expect much for doing little and who need constant applause for what they do at work. I have read that my generation is whingey and whiney. However, the funny thing is that the more I look at things the more I realize that Gen Y really does have some very real bones to pick with their parents' generation (Boomer)

1) Boomers: this is the generation that coined the phrase "hope I die before I get old." Here is the weird thing I notice: The Boomers now ARE getting old and do not want to admit it! I look around and I see, for example, film actresses in their fifties trying to look thirty and I also see AARP ads that want to "revolutionize" sex after sixty. In my sister's line of work (journalism) I have watched bosses totally balk at younger employees' suggestions. For example, my sister has tried desperately to explain that the old business model of print media is not going to last much longer and that paying unions unspeakable salaries for obsolete work is counterproductive: what should be done is total retraining for MULTIMEDIA work and working with the unions to retrain the force is much more efficient and profitable. I have also sat and watched large automotive companies completley misread the preferences of drivers and the heads of these companies refuse to acknowledge that 1) the days of singing about your GTO and cruising are 40 years in the past and 2) bluntly, the designs of American cars are hideous (I would know: I have known many very talented CAD designers come up with some funky designs....only to get rejected because the boss can't bear to part with his ossifying conception of the '68 Mustang he had when he was 16.) Is it just me, or should Gen Y's sense of entitlement be well placed, since it actually is OUR time to be young, and OUR turn to shape the world? In fact, is it ever going to be our turn?

2) Boomers I have spoken to do not seem to understand that money does not just magically appear...and yet my Generation is accused of being over pampered. I graduated from a top Art School in NYC about a year and a half ago. My student loan debts are staggering. My prospects of finding a job are not as good as you think: my degree is in making computer animation, but because nobody is buying video games in a big slump, my prospects of getting hired are small (and given the instability in Japan I do not want to go overseas.) I don't know how, or if, I will ever get employment. I have read articles in the paper saying that Gen Y is lazy vs. out of work Boomers because we do not make as grand an effort to keep going on job interviews, but the Boomer written article neglects to mention that in a recession 1) bosses hire with very narrow criteria to minimize risk, meaning experience always gets priority and 2) the future of this country is predicated on if I can get a job, not if someone much older than I am can retire. To top it all off, my generation is likely to be saddled with enormous debt and Boomers I have met left and right think this recession is just a matter of a few more months....even if my gut says years.

3) Technology. Gen X usually gets bashed a lot, but I will tip my hat to Gen X bosses in the fact that at least they understand that the forward thrust of technology is changing the face of industries, everything from medicine to cartoons. In Boomer Bosses i have met a lot of resistance. Some will stubbormly insist on heading to a bookshop for the latest information on trends when people my age have to grovel to be allowed to use our iPhones....and get the same research paper in a matter of minutes, plus lesser known databases.

4) Issues: I am a woman. If there is one thing that gets my goat about Boomer feminists, it is that they totally have missed the boat about what girls and women need today. I really do not care if a woman becomes president or not: to me, such a feat is not impossible or even represents the big prize. I care more about the United States being the only Western Country that does not have significant paid maternity leave and the fact that whatever husband I will have shall not be able to take time off after the birth of a baby at all. I care more that the rights of the corporate entity take precedent over the needs of its workers: 2 weeks vacation is not enough time to spend with your family out of the whole year and cannot possibly be a good thing if it is likely that kids are going to have a longer school year. I am tired of the current horse crap being bandied about on the news regarding (horror of horrors!) mammograms at 50 as opposed to 40, and by far more concerned with the fact that young mothers who have just given birth are getting pushed out of the hospital about 24 HOURS after the fact just so hospitals can save a buck; I am outright alarmed that the major (mostly white) Boomer feminists you see on tv will rail on and on about patriarchy but will not raise a finger to help the fact that the face of HIV nowadays is almost always poor, black/Latina....and female.


I have read a lot about Gen X constantly blaming the Boomers for their ills. But on the other hand, given what I have said, John, IS IT ALL IN THE HEADS OF THE MILLENIALS, TOO?!!!

John
Posts: 11479
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
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Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by John »

shadow_cat60 wrote: > I have always been fascinated by generational theory and when I
> found this site, I was very pleased: I have always wanted to
> discuss such matters in a public forum. That being said, there is
> something I would like to bring up...and what I have to say is
> particularly directed at John. (Forgive me if I am not totally
> clear, but it is late where I am.)

> I was born at the tail end of 1982, ergo, I consider myself Gen
> Y. Personally, I have read a lot of articles describing my
> generation as entitled fools who expect much for doing little and
> who need constant applause for what they do at work. I have read
> that my generation is whingey and whiney. However, the funny thing
> is that the more I look at things the more I realize that Gen Y
> really does have some very real bones to pick with their parents'
> generation (Boomer)
You're right on the cusp of the Gen-X/Gen-Y(Millennial) split. In
most cases, Millennials are sick and tired of both Boomers and
Gen-Xers, and don't take sides. You may wish to consider whether
you're more of an Xer or a Millennial.

People who criticize Millennials as "fools" usually have done so
because they're pissed off that college students wouldn't protest
against the Iraq war, or for some other political reason.

Millennials feel confused because they're a "generation in waiting."
When the crisis comes, it will be the Millennials who will be called
on to save the world, and they will march off to do so with no
hesitation.

** Why aren't college students protesting against the Iraq war?
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 601antiwar

shadow_cat60 wrote: > 1) Boomers: this is the generation that coined the phrase "hope I
> die before I get old." Here is the weird thing I notice: The
> Boomers now ARE getting old and do not want to admit it!
This happens to all generations. Cut your mom some slack. Getting
old is not fun.
shadow_cat60 wrote: > I look around and I see, for example, film actresses in their
> fifties trying to look thirty and I also see AARP ads that want to
> "revolutionize" sex after sixty. In my sister's line of work
> (journalism) I have watched bosses totally balk at younger
> employees' suggestions. For example, my sister has tried
> desperately to explain that the old business model of print media
> is not going to last much longer and that paying unions
> unspeakable salaries for obsolete work is counterproductive: what
> should be done is total retraining for MULTIMEDIA work and
> working with the unions to retrain the force is much more
> efficient and profitable. I have also sat and watched large
> automotive companies completley misread the preferences of drivers
> and the heads of these companies refuse to acknowledge that 1) the
> days of singing about your GTO and cruising are 40 years in the
> past and 2) bluntly, the designs of American cars are hideous (I
> would know: I have known many very talented CAD designers come up
> with some funky designs....only to get rejected because the boss
> can't bear to part with his ossifying conception of the '68
> Mustang he had when he was 16.) Is it just me, or should Gen Y's
> sense of entitlement be well placed, since it actually is OUR time
> to be young, and OUR turn to shape the world? In fact, is it ever
> going to be our turn?
I'm a Boomer, and I don't recognize many of the things you say about
Boomers. If you're 60 years old and suddenly your job becomes
obsolete, you tend to panic. You would too. Training everyone for
multimedia is not feasible. Nor is convincing people that they want
funky cars.
shadow_cat60 wrote: > 2) Boomers I have spoken to do not seem to understand that money
> does not just magically appear...and yet my Generation is accused
> of being over pampered. I graduated from a top Art School in NYC
> about a year and a half ago. My student loan debts are staggering.
> My prospects of finding a job are not as good as you think: my
> degree is in making computer animation, but because nobody is
> buying video games in a big slump, my prospects of getting hired
> are small (and given the instability in Japan I do not want to go
> overseas.) I don't know how, or if, I will ever get employment. I
> have read articles in the paper saying that Gen Y is lazy vs. out
> of work Boomers because we do not make as grand an effort to keep
> going on job interviews, but the Boomer written article neglects
> to mention that in a recession 1) bosses hire with very narrow
> criteria to minimize risk, meaning experience always gets priority
> and 2) the future of this country is predicated on if I can get a
> job, not if someone much older than I am can retire. To top it all
> off, my generation is likely to be saddled with enormous debt and
> Boomers I have met left and right think this recession is just a
> matter of a few more months....even if my gut says years.
The current job situation is very bad for everyone in every
generation, Friday's jobs figures notwithstanding. The effective
unemployment rate (when you include people who have given up looking
or who are underemployed) is around 15-20%. Everyone is suffering.

I've been unemployed most of the time since the Nasdaq crash of 2000.
There were 2-3 years when I couldn't get a single phone call
returned, since no one was hiring computer people in the early 2000s
decade. Finally, I've lucked out in the last year, and I've gotten a
stable software development job as a contract employee. If the
contract gets cancelled, then I'll be screwed. Many Boomers who had
hoped to retire can no longer afford to do so, since they lost most
of their savings in the last couple of years.

I'll give you some fatherly advice that may make you hate me as much
as you hate your parents, but it's good advice nonetheless. As an
unemployed person, you have plenty of spare time. Keep sending out
resumes, making phone calls, and going on interviews. Even though the
odds are against you for any given job, if you play the numbers,
sooner or later you're bound to get lucky, just as I finally did.

Also, when you're not looking for a job, use the spare time for some
project. Write a book, take a course, develop new skills, keep up to
date on your old skills. I used my spare time to develop
Generational Dynamics, and it's turned out to be the most important
thing I've ever done in my life. Being unemployed is horrible, but
the extra time you have available is a gift, and you shouldn't waste
it.
shadow_cat60 wrote: > 3) Technology. Gen X usually gets bashed a lot, but I will tip my
> hat to Gen X bosses in the fact that at least they understand that
> the forward thrust of technology is changing the face of
> industries, everything from medicine to cartoons. In Boomer Bosses
> i have met a lot of resistance. Some will stubbormly insist on
> heading to a bookshop for the latest information on trends when
> people my age have to grovel to be allowed to use our
> iPhones....and get the same research paper in a matter of minutes,
> plus lesser known databases.
Well, you won't get too much sympathy from me on this one. I've seen
too many software development disasters over the years, and in the
last twenty years most of them have come incompetent Gen-Xers being
in charge.

** Boomers and Gen-Xers: Dumbing down IT
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... java080701

shadow_cat60 wrote: > 4) Issues: I am a woman. If there is one thing that gets my goat
> about Boomer feminists, it is that they totally have missed the
> boat about what girls and women need today. I really do not care
> if a woman becomes president or not: to me, such a feat is not
> impossible or even represents the big prize. I care more about the
> United States being the only Western Country that does not have
> significant paid maternity leave and the fact that whatever
> husband I will have shall not be able to take time off after the
> birth of a baby at all. I care more that the rights of the
> corporate entity take precedent over the needs of its workers: 2
> weeks vacation is not enough time to spend with your family out of
> the whole year and cannot possibly be a good thing if it is likely
> that kids are going to have a longer school year. I am tired of
> the current horse crap being bandied about on the news regarding
> (horror of horrors!) mammograms at 50 as opposed to 40, and by far
> more concerned with the fact that young mothers who have just
> given birth are getting pushed out of the hospital about 24 HOURS
> after the fact just so hospitals can save a buck; I am outright
> alarmed that the major (mostly white) Boomer feminists you see on
> tv will rail on and on about patriarchy but will not raise a
> finger to help the fact that the face of HIV nowadays is almost
> always poor, black/Latina....and female.
All of these things are going to get worse, as we move deeper into a
financial crisis. Feminism has nothing to do with it.

As for feminism itself, I spent almost 15 years researching and
writing a book on gender issues for men. I reviewed many feminist
policies, and found that all of them have the objective of increasing
violence against women and children so that feminist organizations
will get more money.

** Collapse of Duke rape case represents cultural change
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 22#e070422

shadow_cat60 wrote: > I have read a lot about Gen X constantly blaming the Boomers for
> their ills. But on the other hand, given what I have said, John,
> IS IT ALL IN THE HEADS OF THE MILLENIALS, TOO?!!!
We're in the beginning phases of a worldwide financial crisis, and
we're headed for a world war. Boomers and Xers viscerally see this
coming, but they don't want to admit it, and they're in a state of
anxiety and panic. My experience is that the Millennials are the
most realistic in accepting what's coming, and understanding what
their roles will be.

Sincerely,

John

shadow_cat60
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:26 am

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by shadow_cat60 »

I AM a Millenial, born in November 1982 and so is my little sister ( September 1985) (my older sister is the real tossup: November 1980). Culturally, I have a lot more in common with somebody born four years after me than ten years before me. To give a few key examples, I barely remember President Reagan's second term at all and I am too young to remember anything about President Nixon except his funeral. Reflecting on the events of the past year, Michael Jackson was a great hero to X'ers and some late Boomers in the 1980s. By the time I was ten years old, his star was sinking fast and hard (the man was accused of molesting a boy about my age) and the quality of his music was falling apart. Kurt Cobain was something I was mainly too young to listen to and while Generation X was thundering about the glories of nihilism, I was enjoying being a kid through most of the 90's. (I get nostalgic for the Nickelodeon show "Doug" and I got inspired to be a computer animator by watching the movie Jurassic Park six times the summer it came out.) I also might add that I am less of a cynic than my sister is....but that is another story.


I'm a Boomer, and I don't recognize many of the things you say about
Boomers.

I think you should: look at the CEOs of all the Motown 3 companies. Each one is headed by Boomer executives or has been up to recently. Two of the three former juggernauts are going belly up: Ford is only being saved by the fact that it invested in pickup trucks and was a lot more conservative in some of its business practices. When I meant a "funky"design, I meant a desing that was a lot more competitive with what Toyota and a few German manufacturers churn out already. I meant a prototype car that has a unique, attractive design on the outside, can be converted to either a hybrid, hydrogen, or electric energy source, and (most attractive of all) can leg it out on the long distance between Yuma and Los Angeles. It was a concept my friend came up with in college....and it got rejected because it did not look enough like "the established brand." (My friend. A- , now works at Tesla Motors for obvious reasons.) If anything, the CEOs of Detroit should be bending over backwards for A-. The fact of the matter is that American cars are not appealing anymore because they are overreliant on fossil fuels and do not posess the correct whistles and bells most consumers want (I myself drive a VW bug because it is incredibly fuel efficient, it has a wonderful stereo that works well with my iPod [Apple cut a deal with Volkswagen a while back] and it has a sweet turbo engine) Ford, Chrysler, and GM have to compete with Toyota, Kia, and Mazda now....because the playing field has changed. (In fact, if I had to bet on a horse in the coming years, I would say that eventually Tesla is gonna come out on top. If the old farts in Detroit won't play ball with people my age, then they may actually deserve to go the way of the dodo.)

Another thing I said about papers is already happening: the Boston Globe almost got shut down last year for the reasons I mentioned. The Seattle Post Intelligencer is already extinct in print and Philadelphia's papers look to be endangered already. Why is this? -Because the Boston Globe, at least, refused to acknowledge that people my age do not read their information in print.

We read online. In fact, statistics show we spend about 4.5 hours online each day, which is more time than we spend watching television.

While online we also do not derive information solely from the newspaper format, but rather also from blogs and from little multimedia presentations like viral videos (nearly every speech Barack Obama has ever given since his '08 campaign remains online) and Flash based graphs (think of it as a Power Point Presentation that is self-guided.) The fact of the matter is also that because the internet is a much more open playing field the competition is international: large city papers like Philly's don't seem to realize that it is very easy for somebody like me to get the same bit of information/get a wittier editorial from a foreign newspaper (I myself read Le Monde, Mother Jones, the London Times, and even the Chosun Ilbo on occasion.) They are no longer guaranteed a captive audience. Neither the writing staff in the newsroom nor the bigshots in the boardroom were trained for or are accustomed to such a world. Sadly, John, if they want to keep their jobs, they are going to have to throw themselves on the grenade and learn everything they can about multimedia communications before they retire or else risk the whole company going down like the Titanic. (PS-Retraining IS feasible: the New York Times is doing just fine because it saw the writing on the wall almost ten years ago and its online edition is one of the best my sister knows.)
........may make you hate me as much
as you hate your parents.............
Actually, I don't hate my Mother. I have spoken to her about what I see around me...and she actually AGREES with me on many points. My mother was born in 1955. She definitely falls as a Boomer. BUT, she has told me that she thinks that her generation is more than a little spoiled. About a week ago in fact, she was having a good laugh at a woman about her age that she knows: we will call this woman June. Mom said that June is all for fighting the man, but when it really comes down to it, she is not opposed to having the man at her dinner table if she thinks it will raise her social status or the status of one of her daughters. (June was raving how her daughter was going to get a BMW, a condo, and a whole package to go with her job...with a sleazy law firm.)

My mother grew up a little differently from a lot of people of her generation: her mother and father broke up when she was eight years old and she mostly was raised by her grandmother (b. 1898) and mother (b. 1928). The house she grew up in was not a white picket fence, father knows best type of deal, but rather one where money was tight (Grandma only had enough education to become a secretary, Grandpa was a deadbeat) and where it was an urban environment (Bensonhurst, Brooklyn.) Personally I think these facts give her a unique voice on a lot of issues regarding her generation: Mom pretty much sees the whole social unrest of the late 60's as horsecrap mainly because it was a "bunch of white, spoiled, rich kids who were given everything they wanted who were out in the streets protesting while my mother and I were struggling to get by." (She also thinks that these rich kids sold their soul the minute they realized they could make a whole lot of money in the corporate world with their big ideals.)




On another note, what I actually champion for computer programming is that it be taught to kids as young as 12 and interwoven with their math lessons, so that this knowledge can be used by everyone when they go off to work. I agree that overreliance on certain "cookbooks" is a problem. A simple solution is not always the right one. If I had to choose, I would actually ask that IT professionals know the following, say, for a medical firm: UNIX, C (both families) and Python TO START, plus the concepts behind each (I myself can read and write C+ as it is a very close relative of MELscript, a programming language used by computer graphics geeks like me.) The ignorance of the Boomers at the top of how to do any of the hard work in IT I think is at their peril because it has created a situation where they have no idea how to wield the new technology efficiently or punish those that use it for corrupt reasons (I personally know a guy that has found a way to embezzle a huge sum of money from a large company over a series of years that would go undetected by the companies computers or the accounting department. Blessedly he has no desire to actually use it, but he showed me the script because he wanted to prove a point that it WAS POSSIBLE.

John
Posts: 11479
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by John »

shadow_cat60 wrote: > I think you should: look at the CEOs of all the Motown 3
> companies. Each one is headed by Boomer executives or has been up
> to recently. Two of the three former juggernauts are going belly
> up: Ford is only being saved by the fact that it invested in
> pickup trucks and was a lot more conservative in some of its
> business practices. When I meant a "funky"design, I meant a desing
> that was a lot more competitive with what Toyota and a few German
> manufacturers churn out already. I meant a prototype car that has
> a unique, attractive design on the outside, can be converted to
> either a hybrid, hydrogen, or electric energy source, and (most
> attractive of all) can leg it out on the long distance between
> Yuma and Los Angeles.
Yes, but you're being very selective in your criticisms. If I recall
the figures from last summer correctly, car sales for GM were down
something like 40%, and sales for Toyota were down 35%. So you could
argue that Toyota did slightly better than GM, but the point is that
the auto market has been a disaster for everyone.

In order for GM to convert to your friend's "funky" design, they
would have to invest billions of dollars to retool their factories,
and it would be several years before the first car was available. And
then they would be criticized because its "unique, attractive design"
was no more than a "me too" product, copying Toyota. And I don't know
much about cars, but if I'm not mistaken, GM has been pushing hard to
develop hybrid cars.
http://www.gm.com/experience/fuel_economy/hybrids.jsp
shadow_cat60 wrote: > Another thing I said about papers is already happening: the
> Boston Globe almost got shut down last year for the reasons I
> mentioned. The Seattle Post Intelligencer is already extinct in
> print and Philadelphia's papers look to be endangered already. Why
> is this? -Because the Boston Globe, at least, refused to
> acknowledge that people my age do not read their information in
> print. We read online. In fact, statistics show we spend about 4.5
> hours online each day, which is more time than we spend watching
> television.
Do you really believe that Boomers are so dumb that any of this is
news to them?
shadow_cat60 wrote: > Actually, I don't hate my Mother. I have spoken to her about what
> I see around me...and she actually AGREES with me on many points.
> My mother was born in 1955. She definitely falls as a Boomer. BUT,
> she has told me that she thinks that her generation is more than a
> little spoiled. About a week ago in fact, she was having a good
> laugh at a woman about her age that she knows: we will call this
> woman June. Mom said that June is all for fighting the man, but
> when it really comes down to it, she is not opposed to having the
> man at her dinner table if she thinks it will raise her social
> status or the status of one of her daughters. (June was raving how
> her daughter was going to get a BMW, a condo, and a whole package
> to go with her job...with a sleazy law firm.)
This has nothing to do with generations. This is all about estrogen.
shadow_cat60 wrote: > (I personally know a guy that has found a way to embezzle a huge
> sum of money from a large company over a series of years that
> would go undetected by the companies computers or the accounting
> department. Blessedly he has no desire to actually use it, but he
> showed me the script because he wanted to prove a point that it
> WAS POSSIBLE.
I first read about this scam in the late 1960s. The way it works is
that you write the software to take advantage of fractional
transaction amounts. For example, if you compute a transaction that
transfers $298.636 from one account to another, then you transfer
$298.63 to the correct account, and $.006 to your own account. After
billions of transactions, you've made millions of dollars.

See? We Boomers really aren't as dumb as you think.

Sincerely,

John

P.S.: It's a good thing that your friend has no desire to use his
script, because most auditing software today would detect the scam,
and your friend would go to jail.
Last edited by John on Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Add the P.S.

martypants
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:41 pm

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by martypants »

I was born in 1960. I guess that makes me a Boomer under most statistical counters. I've never felt like it though. I've
always felt like I was outside looking in on the rest of the older boomers who were there before me.
Since I grew up on the end of the boomer generation, there have always been older boomers there ahead of me, no matter where I went.
- When I tried to get a decent job, there were always older Boomers there ahead of me, already in positions of authority. It's been a frustrating existence. Even as my career unfolded, my skills and capabilities grew there was always some dickhead boomer there to rule on all of us younger employees. I was never able to compete as well because there were always so many more capable people, just a few years older and therefore a few more years of experience. Thanks, boomers.
- When I was old enough to buy a house, the boomers before me had already been there and the prices had been jacked up to an unaffordable level. My parents bought a nice 3 bedroom home in Texas in 1976 for a mere $35k. I was 16 and too young to do anything. When I was 22 and needed a home for my new family, prices were in the $80k range and interest rates were running 16% for mortgages. Thanks, boomers.
- When I retire (wishful thinking, of course) at the ripe old age of 67, the boomers will have consumed whatever is left of Social Security and there won't be any left for me. Since I was a young boy, I've known of the potential end of SS before I'd get any. Congress has never done a thing in the 40 years since then other than to raise the retirement age from 65 to 67. Thanks, boomers.
- I was too young for the "Summer of Love" and could only read about what my older brothers and sisters revelled in. All I got was an extreme desire to fit in and a drug addiction to keep up the appearances of fitting in. Thanks, boomers.

But hey, I'm not bitter. It ain't their fault. I won't start a revolution with them over it.

But this latest round of "let's all unfetter the banks" so they can do what/where/how they want is really pissing me off. Those that cast off the rules and regulations the Great Depression generation put in place to keep the bankers in line will be the one that makes me thrust my chest out in indignation and hatred. I'd be the first to lead a gang of pitchfork carrying constituents against them.

Until now, the boomers have just been a pain in the a$$. Now, they have created the biggest financial mess the world's ever seen.

Love your website! Keep the articles and insight coming!

gerald
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by gerald »

martypants-- welcome.

Regarding Social Security , governments and banks, my perspective.

I was born in 1945 and have a little different take on things. First of all, I grew up in a community of first and second generation Americans , they came from Eastern Europe and had relatives behind the Iron Curtain. ( Some had personal experience of the financial turmoil in Europe of the 1920's). From them, I learned about some of the things that went on behind the Iron Curtain. We had a distrust of governments and banks, and after studying some history " while in college" my suspicions were confirmed. I then came to the conclusion , ( In the late 1960's ) that Social Security was going to be a joke. Governments the world over and for thousands of years have had a propensity for devaluing their money, and lying, so why should now be different? Consequently, I worked at building something, out side of corporations and governments as much as possible, ( out side of government control, --what a laugh--, government influences everything ). Any way, if you study history, not the sanitized version or just the current ( last two thousand years ) you may understand the old Chinese curse, which says " may you live in interesting times" and these times will be very interesting.

Centuron
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:52 pm

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by Centuron »

That's a very clever curse.

I was born in 1987, so I'm fairly well seated among Millennial peers. As far as conflicts with our elders or parents are concerned, the primary complaint from my peers is that their parents or guardians act childish or immature, and that they have to pick up the slack. I know a few families where the child has had to be the adult in the family, assuming authority and carrying out responsibility, because the actual adults seem incapable of it.
That said, none of us really want to pick bones with our elders. Indeed, a number of my friends are the peacekeepers in the family, and tend to help keep things running smoothly.

We're not high and mighty in any way, though hubris may be one of our larger downfalls. We just want everyone to grow up and take responsibility. At this point, it doesn't matter if the Boomers or X-ers are jerks. You're still screwed, and whoever screwed you isn't necessarily going to help undo things, so might as well figure out solutions instead of worrying about who to point your finger at. Perhaps this is a minority opinion, since I have seen my fair share of whiney or self-righteous Millennials too, but it seems to me that all the younger generation as a whole wants is to have a sense of stability.

Think about it. We've grown up surrounded by talk of terrorism and growing security measures. We've seen our job opportunities evaporate before we even enter the work force. We've seen our friends and loved ones get shipped off to foreign locales to fight people for obscure or misleading excuses. We've seen people defrauding and manipulating each other, particularly these past few years, and to terrible ends. We've had our homes taken, our parents jobless (or working themselves to death), our lives pinched and often put on hold. Even those of us whose lives have been relatively idyllic are not totally ignorant to the troubles that lie just outside our door. Is it any wonder why a regeneracy event would be effective? Is it any wonder why the younger generation would jump at the chance to have a way to change for the better in hopes of finding some kind of stability?

I leave with this. I am a student at a university, and on our website the headline is "Veterans Center Helps Growing Student Demographic: new program guides student veterans through educational options and resources." Veteran students are a "growing student demographic." I can only imagine where my friends might end up five years from now.

robfromraleigh
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:39 am

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by robfromraleigh »

I'm definitely a Gen-X'er since I was born in 1975. I agree with a lot that was said in the original post of this tread but can also see John's point of view on some of it. I, too, suffered very bleak years in the early 2000's right after graduating from college as nobody was hiring anyone having anything to do with computers. Meanwhile, the Boomers who lacked any technological savvy were goring themselves on the credit and real estate bubbles, and looked upon the Gen-X'ers as lazy and incompetent because of our struggles. Don't get me wrong, I recognize as much as anyone who reads this site that an economic collapse will cause pain and suffering for everyone. But as an X'er, I confess that I could not help but feel a sense of schadenfreude, even if briefly, when the current mess started. And John is right that this is almost purely an X'er feeling as I do not know any older people or younger people who feel the same. (although I sense schadenfreude might apply to John's more recent writings about the European Union and Obama, both of which seemed smug in 2008 that they were "above" the mess of the rest of the world and would "save" us!)

But I digress. There was an excellent article in the New York Times today that pretty much sums up how I feel about most of the members of the older generations. Not to say I do not respect my parents, nor do I want to paint everyone of a generation with the same brush, but this article speaks to the fact that Boomer's are fighting the capitulation they know that their generation will have to have in order for America to survive:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/opini ... ef=opinion

This article hits on several points discussed at length in The Fourth Turning:

1. The artist and prophet generations (Silents & Boomers today) tend to be wealthier than their parents but, in later years, siphon wealth from younger generations. I recall the book talking about how in the late 1960's, the age group most in poverty shifted suddenly from the elders (the nomad "Lost" generation) to childhood poverty (the nomad "Gen-X'ers"), leaving those in between with much better financial fortunes. From my perspective, social programs touted by the young boomers (plus Social Security, although it had been around longer) benefited Silents and Boomers but at the expense of the younger generations because of their long-term unsustainability.

2. Generativity--the prophets (Boomers) will indeed have a Grey Champion to emerge in the depths of the coming crisis that will champion the future generations once again. It will become "all about the children", of course skipping the nomad Generation X and benefiting the new artist and prophet generations (whatever they will be called). It will be a self-less act and will be the moment that finally purges Gen-X of its poisonous attitude that promotes our nihilistic tendencies. That "coming to Jesus" for the Boomers and the purging of nihilistic tendencies of the X'ers is what is _necessary_ for the crisis to finally end.


As much as I hate John's bashing of my generation, I have come to realize that he is largely right about the nihilism of the most ambitious of Gen-X. We only see the most ambitious of Gen-X now because of our young age--the ambitious are the only ones who have earned enough power to do damage at this point and happen to be the ones most nihilistic. The less ambitious of the Gen-X cohort has yet to obtain power, and I believe time will show them to be less nihilistic and more pragmatic when their turn to manage the show will be during the depths of the crisis and the decade or so after its resolution (we hope!).

In particular, I think John would agree with the statement made in the article: "It now seems clear that the only way the U.S. is going to avoid an economic crisis is if the oldsters take it upon themselves to arise and force change. The young lack the political power. Only the old can lead a generativity revolution — millions of people demanding changes in health care spending and the retirement age to make life better for their grandchildren."

Neither Gen-X nor Gen-Y will be able to change the political landscape and berth the regeneracy that many in America yearn for. It will come from the Boomers eventually, but note my emphasis--it will be for the Boomer's _grandchildren_, i.e. the youngest of the new Hero archetype or the new Artist archetype. If I were cynical, I could claim that Boomers have to go through "awakenings" to figure these things out. :) But, more realistically, that awakening will never be for the sake of Gen-X who will have a large cohort who may never find the same levels of success or peace that the other generations experience. I think Boomers know this, and I think Gen-X and Gen-Y knows this as well. And that, I believe, is a great source of generational conflict between them and the Boomers. The Boomers are starting to realize their party has peaked, but they continue to hope against hope that if nobody notices, the status quo of good health care and Social Security benefits can somehow be maintained for decades to come. I have faith that the Grey Champion will change all of that and set all of our hearts in the right place.

Marshall Kane
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:53 pm

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by Marshall Kane »

The Brooks column is another fascinating examples of one of an insightful commentators brushing up against an angle of the generational dynamics elephant while the bigger picture eludes. Peggy Noonan seems to do it in every column these days.

I hate to be a downer, but maybe I can save John a post.

Even if there were a "Grey Champion" who emerged from retirement at 90 years old and inspired brilliant policies and revived sound institutions it would only delay the crash. These Boomers and Xers grew up hearing the lessons of the Greatest Generation, and Boomers even affixed the label "Greatest Generation" on the parents they once rebelled against. Xers grew up admiring their hero grandparents, even if they hated their own parents. Of course, all this veneration came once the older generation was was safely on its way out. The problem is that at some point the older generation will dwindle in number and die off. Whenever that happens the cycle will start anew as younger generations corrupt or ignore those policies and institutions.

robfromraleigh
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:39 am

Re: generational conflict between y and boomers...your thoughts,

Post by robfromraleigh »

Sorry, I did not elaborate on when I thought this would happen. The Grey Champion will appear only after the crash comes. It is the Grey Champion that will signify the new unity amongst the people and make a selfless act that will help the younger generations "pick up the pieces" from the mess of the crash. Using John's words, if the Boomers have been largely narcissistic in positions of leadership, then this event during the regeneracy will be easy to point out because it will show a different side to the Boomer (prophet) generation. Like the song says, "It is better to burn out than fade away" and it is through this self-less act that I believe the Boomer generation will burn out (as opposed to fading away). But....only after the crash or war or whatever bad thing it is that lies before us.

As for Gen-X nihilism, what do you all think of my theory regarding ambition? Right now, it is only the most ambitious of the Gen-X'ers who have been put into positions where they are able to inflict damage. As the Crisis period continues, we are bound to discover more Boomer Managers asleep at the wheel while these ambitious, nihilistic Gen-X'ers have been stomping on the gas pedal despite the threat of running into a brick wall. But at some point, when the entire population discovers we're in deep doo-doo, the nihilistic cohort of Gen-X will, one way or another, be discredited for their past actions. Then, it will be the remaining Gen-X'ers, who were in background before because they were not as ambitious, that will gain some positions of power. Would that not lead to these Gen-X'ers being very pragmatic and transparent to their approach to leadership, to prove that they will NOT follow down the same ill-begotten path of their more ambitious brethren?

This begs the question: What were the members of the Lost Generation who ultimately became good leaders doing in the early stages of the crisis? Were they silently in he background while their more ambitious cohorts were committing the fraud and debauchery in credit during the late 1920's and early 1930's? Since parenting probably has a role in how ambitious one becomes as an adult, was the generational makeup of the parents of the more nihilistic Lost Generation members different than the generational makeup of the members of the Lost Generation who later became heroic/well-respected leaders?

The above is not a trivial question for me as my parents were born in 1944 and 1945, arguable on the cusp between Silents and Boomers. How does this affect a Gen-X'er who has both parents from Silent versus a Gen-X'er who has both parents in Boomer? Or what about Gen-X'ers like me who have sort of a mix between the two?

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