Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Bob Butler
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Rittenhouse & Tribal Thinking

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:15 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:49 pm
We do have a problem with the feeling of superiority, prejudice, oppression and violence, a problem with unequal justice, a problem with tribal thinking.
All the Democrats I quoted, and many others, are guilty of all your accusations. It's the Democrats who are guilty of tribal thinking, which is obvious today, while the Republicans are not.
Not all conservatives and Republicans support racism, or for that matter elitism. However some support the Neo nazi, the KKK, Trump, and tribal thinking. Most Democrats, included those you quoted, resist superiority, prejudice, oppression and violence. If you do not understand this, you do not in the least understand the conflict.

Then again you seem to believe in lies and slander, will use your own strange definition of what tribal thinking is, which has nothing to do with what Henrich defined. Who knows what you will pretend to believe?

Now the Rittenhouse case is your issue, and your are trying to make a big deal of it, so it belongs in your thread which is where I will respond. Please refrain from spouting your strange ideas in the Polyticks thread.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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FullMoon wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:23 pm
Is it possible that our leadership is compromised enough that we'll abandon the Western Pacific and downgrade significantly? It seems like a possibility, although maybe small, given our trajectory.
(If John no longer believes threads should not be interrupted, that his thread and Polyticks should intermingle...)

FDR initiated the policy of containment, that there is a need to deter autocratic powers who think to expand by force. In the Cold War this policy was taken up by the Republicans, who became strong on defense and confrontational. Both parties have continued to keep up containment in the Pacific - even through the Trump administration - by sailing the navy through China's falsely claimed areas and by supporting Taiwan, Australia, Japan, the Philippines, and other local powers making reasonable and internationally recognized claims. It is wise and prudent to encourage the Chinese to think financial adventures are more profitable and sustainable than military expansion and brinksmanship.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by FullMoon »

Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:27 am
FullMoon wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:23 pm
Is it possible that our leadership is compromised enough that we'll abandon the Western Pacific and downgrade significantly? It seems like a possibility, although maybe small, given our trajectory.
(If John no longer believes threads should not be interrupted, that his thread and Polyticks should intermingle...)

FDR initiated the policy of containment, that there is a need to deter autocratic powers who think to expand by force. In the Cold War this policy was taken up by the Republicans, who became strong on defense and confrontational. Both parties have continued to keep up containment in the Pacific - even through the Trump administration - by sailing the navy through China's falsely claimed areas and by supporting Taiwan, Australia, Japan, the Philippines, and other local powers making reasonable and internationally recognized claims. It is wise and prudent to encourage the Chinese to think financial adventures are more profitable and sustainable than military expansion and brinksmanship.
Yes of course. But "encourage the Chinese to think".... Really? It sounds like you're spouting off regurgitated textbook material. And lacking in real world insight.
Chinese aren't very corrigible lately. They've got their own views which correspond little with ours. You'll notice John has been writing about clash of civilizations. And it's this. We're seeing it at full speed in real time. Let's just hope it's not as bad as predicted.

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China Bluffs & Civilization Clash

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FullMoon wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:11 am
Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:27 am

FDR initiated the policy of containment, that there is a need to deter autocratic powers who think to expand by force. In the Cold War this policy was taken up by the Republicans, who became strong on defense and confrontational. Both parties have continued to keep up containment in the Pacific - even through the Trump administration - by sailing the navy through China's falsely claimed areas and by supporting Taiwan, Australia, Japan, the Philippines, and other local powers making reasonable and internationally recognized claims. It is wise and prudent to encourage the Chinese to think financial adventures are more profitable and sustainable than military expansion and brinksmanship.
Yes of course. But "encourage the Chinese to think".... Really? It sounds like you're spouting off regurgitated textbook material. And lacking in real world insight.
Chinese aren't very corrigible lately. They've got their own views which correspond little with ours. You'll notice John has been writing about clash of civilizations. And it's this. We're seeing it at full speed in real time. Let's just hope it's not as bad as predicted.
Not just repeating what others say. I have noted the CCP is into brinksmanship and bluffing. I have tracked what other local powers are doing in response. I note that most seem to take the CCP bluffs more seriously than I do. You have to actually do stuff if you expect your bluffs to work.

Yes, civilizations used to clash, but it is difficult to make the old formula of conquest actually work in this age of nukes, insurgent war and proxy war. It is no wonder folks prefer financial games which sometime actually work.

I have always thought autocratic government inferior, thinking they are all fixated on the elites, screwing their people, and thus living on borrowed time. Thing is, I have trouble seeing how a transition will work. The CCP’s failures with Australian coal policy, corporations leaving, the environment, and dam policies to my mind puts them in a somewhat dire position. No wonder they are seeking to distract. I still do not see how to get there from here, though.

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Re: China Bluffs & Civilization Clash

Post by John »

** 20-Nov-2021 World View: Autocratic China
Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:00 pm
> I have always thought autocratic government inferior, thinking
> they are all fixated on the elites, screwing their people, and
> thus living on borrowed time. Thing is, I have trouble seeing how
> a transition will work. The CCP’s failures with Australian coal
> policy, corporations leaving, the environment, and dam policies to
> my mind puts them in a somewhat dire position. No wonder they are
> seeking to distract. I still do not see how to get there from
> here, though.
Wow! You've really abandoned the pro-Communist pro-Socialist view of
China, and come around to a more realistic view of the Chinese
Communist policies. I assume that you must believe that the Chinese
Communists implementing these policies on the Uighurs, environmental
policy and foreign policies are guilty of "tribal thinking."

That's good. Now you should think about how the Biden administration
and the mainstream media are in bed with the Chinese Communists,
adopting similar policies of political censorship, extrajudicial
arrests of political enemies, and massive slaughter of blacks on the
streets of Democrat-run cities. I hope you realize that these
Democrats are also guilty of the same "tribal thinking."

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Re: China Bluffs & Civilization Clash

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:26 pm
Wow! You've really abandoned the pro-Communist pro-Socialist view of China, and come around to a more realistic view of the Chinese Communist policies. I assume that you must believe that the Chinese Communists implementing these policies on the Uighurs, environmental policy and foreign policies are guilty of "tribal thinking."

That's good. Now you should think about how the Biden administration and the mainstream media are in bed with the Chinese Communists, adopting similar policies of political censorship, extrajudicial arrests of political enemies, and massive slaughter of blacks on the streets of Democrat-run cities. I hope you realize that these Democrats are also guilty of the same "tribal thinking."
I have never been socialist. I have always advocated the Enlightenment values - democracy, human rights and equality - which the so called socialists have opposed, the USSR, the CCP, Castro's Cuba, etc...

Do you actually believe your own lies?

In the CCP's policies towards the Uighurs, there likely is tribal thinking involved. The hatred of Taiwan started out genuinely enough, but the dislike is far more political than racial. Bad blood based on years of oppression, sure, but not classic tribal thinking, not racial. Most of China's bordering countries I am less sure. There seems to be more brinkmanship and bluff than prejudice and violence. This isn't to say the CCP is following Christ's commandment to love their neighbors. Their policy seems to be to create tensions.

The environmental issues do not involve a culture they don't like. I think they are wandering down the wrong path, but that particular issue doesn't involve tribal thinking.

I do believe that to avert war, making financial games more profitable that war is a good policy. Again, nothing to do with tribal thinking.

In the US, what censorship? What arrests? References? Typical Xenakis lies and slander?

While minority deaths have occurred in the US, I am more inclined to blame the bad cops, KKK and Neo Nazi, the people doing the actual killing. The cities elect Democratic leaders as they are less likely to support murder and prejudice. If you indulge in tribal thinking, you can hardly expect your victims to vote for you. The tensions exist because the bad cops and other racists practice murder and prejudice.

The blacks were shipped in slave ships, sold, lynched and otherwise oppressed. The Native Americans had their land taken. They forbade immigration of Asian women for a time while accepting the labor or the men. There were signs saying Irish need not apply. Tribal Thinking has long been a US practice. We are hardly alone in practicing it. Do you understand that in terms of tribal thinking the white supremacists are not the oppressed but the oppressors? Need you be locked into the hold of a ship for several months, whipped, then sold to be able to tell the difference? Must your land be taken, employment denied, female companionship blocked?

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Guns, Germs and Ships

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I live in Plymouth MA. My sister joined a recent archeological tour of the center of town. It emphasized that the original colony was located on the original site of a native village. It was abandoned as the population had died of Smallpox and other European diseases. You could plot the line where the nature of the artifacts changed. Thus, I knew of the power of disease immunities, how it gave the Europeans an advantage in contesting for America. I guess that is one part of Guns, Germs and Steel I didn’t need to be convinced on.

The same was true of the weapons advantage. I already knew the Europeans had gunpowder weapons, originally invented in China but developed in Europe. Anyone with a vague knowledge of history would know that.

Shipping? The Chinese shipping fleets before the age of exploration are less well known, but it is well established that they sailed until beached by the emperor. They got as far as the Red Sea area. Still, that one is a bit obscure. I had bumped into it due to my general interest in history, but would not be surprised if another history interested person had not.

Colonial imperialism couldn’t exist without ships? Well, if you didn’t have the ability to reach another culture, it would be hard to colonize them. That seems to make sense. The Europeans did have the ships at a time few did. It should be common knowledge.

I had not considered that agriculture would advance quicker and wider on an east - west running continent than one that runs north - south. That was brand new, but tends to make sense even if somewhat less relevant than other factors.

I list these in part because many here deem Guns, Germs and Steel illogical. Genetic supremacy seemed more logical. I do not deem it logical. If we were really superior then we’d sill be superior. The survival threads predicting our being hurt badly in war would not need to be written.

We had superior weapons, ships, disease immunities and to some degree agriculture. This is not controversial. The first three at least should be common knowledge to everybody. If you chase main line historical documents you could confirm it, as if you needed too.

What gives? What makes the people here not willing to believe there are alternative reasons other that white supremacy for Europe dominating the globe during the Industrial Age?

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by FullMoon »

"What gives? What makes the people here not willing to believe there are alternative reasons other that white supremacy for Europe dominating the globe during the Industrial Age"
Freedom, and the rule of law. The Constitution of the United States. This is the reason.

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Guns,

Post by Bob Butler »

FullMoon wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:13 am
"What gives? What makes the people here not willing to believe there are alternative reasons other that white supremacy for Europe dominating the globe during the Industrial Age"

Freedom, and the rule of law. The Constitution of the United States. This is the reason.
Are you sure you want to attempt that argument? As Diamond points out, advantages in weapons, shipping and disease immunities took effect long before the US Constitution was written. The Davis and Trump insurrections against the Constitution and rule of law didn't take place until long after European descendants had dominated the Americas.

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Prejudice and Evidence

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:45 pm
Except that the BLM dystopian bottom feeder People's Republic won't be a just place. And, being stuck there, you will be faced reality for the first time in your life.
This conversation and the required response are getting a bit long, so I moved it to my thread.

Some view BLM as dystopian bottoms feeders. Some view them as using non violent protests and legislation to remove a long problem with the culture. Either view can be taken to the extreme of a prejudice, a pre judgement, of your mind being made up before you see the evidence. Either extreme view does not have a place in the courtroom.

I don’t doubt some people have had many white friends a met a few minorities they don’t care for and developed a prejudice. Over history, minorities have been shipped against their will, sold, murdered, denied jobs, land and female companionship. While these extremes have been vastly reduced, they existed and a remnant of that way of thinking remains. I can see why both sides will get worked up when a court case is decided against their pre judgement. John has documented some of the Hollywood types and blue leaders have shot off their mouths. Their pre judgements are not always supported by a jury looking at the evidence. I have a belief that people should be always found guilty or not on basis of evidence, not skin pigmentation.

I’m more inclined to see the system as working as designed. In one case they could not beyond a reasonable doubt determine motive. In another, they could. They came up with opposite verdicts, likely correctly.

Thus in preferring courtrooms make decisions on evidence rather that prejudice does not indicate a lack of facing reality. People like to think their prejudices are above evidence and they would prefer a justice system based on that pre judgement. This exists. But I am not one of those people.

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