Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

spottybrowncow wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:58 am
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:24 pm
In many of the January 6 MSNBC news reports, they invite no doubt biased ‘legal experts’ in to supplement their news reporting. One of them recently outlined a legal doctrine I had never heard of before, ‘willful ignorance.’ If you are given more than reasonable cause to believe something is so, choosing to ignore this evidence and believe the opposite is treated under the law as the equivalent of lying. The primary example, of course, is the Big Lie. If Trump was told by the Attorney General, by the FBI, by several others, that the various conspiracy theories are wrong, in detail, after chasing them down, and Trump chose to believe and act otherwise, this is an example of willful ignorance. One consciously decides to believe something one should know isn’t so. This is legally treated as a lie. If one is given fully enough information to learn something, but decide it is to one’s advantage not to believe it, one is not given the benefit of the doubt.

It is getting to the point that even for an ordinary person, believing in the Big Lie is willful ignorance. Sure, most won’t have access to the Attorney General or the like, but it takes a conscious bias at this point to claim belief in the Lie.
Your analysis of "willful ignorance" in the specific case of Trump and the 2020 election misses some critical elements.

The election was swung based on altered rules on mail-in voting in 4 key swing districts promulgated not by the legislatures, but by the respective courts in these areas. There is a very cogent argument that the courts exceeded their constitutional authority by over ruling the legislatures on matters of election conduct. The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to consider this very question. If they rule that the courts did actually exceed their authority, then one remedy that could be considered is re-doing the 2020 election under the original voting rules defined by the legislatures. I can hear you and your friends wailing, but this is how the law works, so try to get over it.

As a practical matter, I don't think the election will be re-done, no matter how the SC rules. But this line of reasoning certainly gives anyone solid legal reason to question the legitimacy of the 2020 outcome, certainly far more so than claiming "Russian interference" put Trump over the line in 2016.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:52 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:22 pm
In addition, Trump’s attempts to steal the election are being exposed just as the mid terms are coming up.
This type of statement is what I call "shitbombing". This is what liberals do for entertainment. I've seen liberals do this many times. It's the equivalent of taking a big pile of shit, attaching a fuse to it, lighting the fuse, leaving the room and waiting for the pile of shit to explode all over everybody else.
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:44 pm
I could easily see this shifted to its own thread. Feel free to create one.
Then create one. You're the one who created this issue with the above statement. Why should someone else who had nothing to do with it be given the task of creating a thread for an issue you created? Who are you?
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:10 pm
Appreciated and agreed. I assume those that resort to name calling and insults can’t respond with logic and fact. If they could, they would. I sort of smugly smile when I see someone throwing around insults as is see it as admitting he has lost the intellectual debate.
That's a bad assumption. I could respond with logic and fact but you're so utterly delusional, I can see that there is no use.
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:10 pm
Chasing weird perspectives is what I do. You never know where thinking alien will take you. John has collected a bunch of folk that from my perspective think alien. The Republican Rural Religious mind set is just another alien way of perceiving things. I’m doing my best so figure it out.
You're not doing your best to figure it out. You haven't even begun an honest attempt to figure it out. All you've done is put an inappropriate label on it that suits your fancy.
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:01 am
If some people read insult when none is intended, what can one do?
What you can do is try to figure out how you are insulting people. Because that's what you are doing.
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:01 am
John has traditionally censored by moving stuff between threads. He keep his own threads pure to follow his values without returning the courtesy, disrupting other’s threads. I figure this may return shortly, but am used to it. Until then, I am responding to comments made.
Go back to my first comment and read it again. And don't respond to any of my comments.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:52 pm
Higgenbotham wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:52 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:22 pm
In addition, Trump’s attempts to steal the election are being exposed just as the mid terms are coming up.
This type of statement is what I call "shitbombing". This is what liberals do for entertainment. I've seen liberals do this many times. It's the equivalent of taking a big pile of shit, attaching a fuse to it, lighting the fuse, leaving the room and waiting for the pile of shit to explode all over everybody else.
Have you been watching the Jan 6 committee hearings at all? The most damaging stuff implicating Trump is being presented by Republican members of the Republican administration reporting on the Republicans. The excrement is coming from the Republicans. Granted, the timing of exposing it is suspicious, but the damage is self inflicted. As Russia invaded and China build lots of ghost stuff they don't need, it is failures of the old values that gets the conservative factions in trouble. War, communist economics and violating the law are just behaviors that get you in trouble these days.
Higgenbotham wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:52 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:44 pm
I could easily see this shifted to its own thread. Feel free to create one.
Then create one. You're the one who created this issue with the above statement. Why should someone else who had nothing to do with it be given the task of creating a thread for an issue you created? Who are you?
I am just responding to comments in the thread they are posted. If I post elsewhere, there is little assurance it will be noted.
Higgenbotham wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:52 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:10 pm
Appreciated and agreed. I assume those that resort to name calling and insults can’t respond with logic and fact. If they could, they would. I sort of smugly smile when I see someone throwing around insults as is see it as admitting he has lost the intellectual debate.
That's a bad assumption. I could respond with logic and fact but you're so utterly delusional, I can see that there is no use.
Prove it. Experiment with logic and fact.
Higgenbotham wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:52 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:01 am
John has traditionally censored by moving stuff between threads. He keep his own threads pure to follow his values without returning the courtesy, disrupting other’s threads. I figure this may return shortly, but am used to it. Until then, I am responding to comments made.
And don't respond to any of my comments.
If you don't like me responding to your comments, make fewer comments to me.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by John »

Great moderating job, Clark mod!

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Bob Butler
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The End of the Crisis

Post by Bob Butler »

YouTube’s algorithms seem to have me pegged as interested in a Chinese collapse. One of the most common authors it feeds me is Peter Zeihan, but there are several. The basic theory is Chicken Little’s. The sky is falling. China built infrastructure they don’t need, dams that are failing, are holding their people’s bank accounts hostage, can’t build fighter aircraft that can launch from a carrier with full loads of weapons and fuel, are deep in debt, are dependent on foreign Middle Eastern oil that must travel by sea which a few destroyers could block it, are dependent on foreign trade and cannot afford a conflict, have a predominant aging population and a ‘one child policy’ younger demographic so will have a poor mix of people, etc…

The only question is whether Russia will collapse first.

The various sites are more into the numbers than I am, but sound vaguely convincing.

The latest theory is that the CCP knows better than anyone that it is all about to fall apart. Who knows which factor will dominate. The only way that the CCP can retain power is through bluff and nationalism, keeping their population adhering to a ‘greatness of China’ myth. Thus, we have a surplus of saber rattling whenever they have the chance. Picture the old Nazi superiority of the master race propaganda on steroids.

In the old cartoons, they would occasionally show a character running off a cliff, but not starting to fall until the character noticed he was walking on nothing. I see the three major crisis issues as in that phase. You can pretend you are OK until you hit the bottom of the cliff. China, Russia and Trump seem in very different ways to be heading for the bottom of the cliff. Still, everyone is pretending that if you run on thin air really fast enough, you won’t fall. China’s economy has not reached the point where collapse is obvious. Russia fights on. Trump got the CPAC nomination for 2024. All is well for all three?

I am just having trouble believing it. The failures are not obvious yet. Is the handwriting on the wall if you choose not to read it?

spottybrowncow
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by spottybrowncow »

I am praying that Trump runs in 2024.

Part of my reason for doing so is that I LOVED his policies, and I especially like the fact that he is the LEAST racist, misogynistic, homophobic, and antisemitic politician to have achieved such prominence. All of the claims that he is racist are lies, as evidenced by his increasing support by minorities. Want a documented racist? Look no further than Joe Biden. Reformed? I have a bridge to sell you.

But my biggest, most selfish reason for wanting him to run is that I want to see the hypocritical, woke, leftist, brainwashed demons rending their garments in the street, as they wail that they cannot tolerate any more oppression.

We need national unity now more than ever. This can only come from a shared love for America, which Trump promotes. Progressives' goal is to weaken America so it does not stand in the way of globalization.

spottybrowncow
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by spottybrowncow »

BREAKING - Trump's home just raided by Gestapo - we're in a third world country.
Let the events unfold.

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Mars a Lago Search Warrant

Post by Bob Butler »

spottybrowncow wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:11 pm
BREAKING - Trump's home just raided by Gestapo - we're in a third world country.
Let the events unfold.
Well, the above is hardly my opinion. What passes for “great moderating” is that no one can disagree with conservative opinion without censorship, but anyone can disagree with progressive opinion on the token progressive area. That labels this as a propaganda site.

I got involved in a book Sunday night, slept through a great deal of Monday, and only tuned into the news late. After I went on about China and Russia as being collapse level centers of the current critical crisis issues, there was not one mention of either of them in several hours of news. I can forgive them because they were so focused on Trump.

Attorney General Garland clearly knew the Mars a Lago search warrant would be heavily scrutinized and politicized. Legally, to get approval for the search warrant you needed probable cause the warrant would result in evidence of a criminal act. (An act passed due to Nixon’s behavior, by the way.) The fact that the FBI found and removed documents, and that the search was at the behest of the National Archives, will indicate they did find government documents, which means Trump did violate federal law. The FBI, Garland and the judge acted according to law and will ultimately be vindicated. From everything I have heard about Garland, he would have made sure this was necessary and done by the book. From everything I have heard about Trump, he will take advantage of Garland’s by the book prosecution silence to lie repeatedly.

And naturally, the MAGA crowd is against rule of law. It is said Trump believes himself above the law. It seems much of the MAGA crowd, including Spottybrowncow, agrees with him.

It has been noted that no other ex president has had his home searched by the FBI. To this I may note no other ex president has violated the law so flagrantly and often as Trump. MSNBC made a point of noting that they didn’t know for hours which violation of law resulted in the search warrant.

Ah, well. I’ve nothing to be added to what is in the public record, other than repeat one MSNBC point. No, this is not what would have happened in a banana republic. In a banana republic, the dictator’s guard would have shot any law enforcement people that tried to search, with impunity. No agency would think the law applied to the leader. The judge would be on the leader’s side, and would not have signed the warrant.

And that seems to be what the MAGA crowd wants. It is good that the MAGA crowd is getting ever smaller.

Oh, yes. The other point that MSNBC was fond of making is that the raid took place on the anniversary of Nixon resigning. They also didn’t believe that any US president could make Nixon seem a relative saint.

spottybrowncow
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by spottybrowncow »

What worries me most about the Mar-A-Lago raid is that it signals that the democrats are truly desperate, and terrified of losing power in the mid-terms. It now looks possible that their next moves will be to:

1) get rid of the filibuster
2) stack the Supreme Court
3) implement national mandatory mail-in voting, with lots and lots of drop boxes and no signature verification or other checks for vote authenticity,

all before the midterm elections. If they succeed, they will have instituted a coup of sorts, and the republican party will exist only as token resistance. Maybe the old saying "as California goes, so goes the nation" will turn out to be right after all.

I could go on imagining what else they would do, but it's too depressing right now. Certainly a re-interpretation of the 2A and mandatory gun confiscation would be high priority items.

"Lord, please tell me I'm paranoid."
"Spotty, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you."

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Bob Butler
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After the Crisis

Post by Bob Butler »

spottybrowncow wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:04 pm
What worries me most about the Mar-A-Lago raid is that it signals that the democrats are truly desperate, and terrified of losing power in the mid-terms. It now looks possible that their next moves will be to:

1) get rid of the filibuster
2) stack the Supreme Court
3) implement national mandatory mail-in voting, with lots and lots of drop boxes and no signature verification or other checks for vote authenticity,
After Nixon, it was assumed that the equivalent of a coup had occurred. After Nixon had demonstrated himself as above the law and democracy, it was thought that the Republicans had discredited themselves as a party. And yet, a few presidents later, along came Ronald Reagan. I would not give up all hope forever.

I do anticipate that the conservatives will have to purge the remnants of MAGA and reinvent themselves. They will resist taking action that the progressives deem necessary. As after the Civil War the rural agricultural faction invented the KKK. They will find some way to resist some of the lessons of the crisis. Generally, in the high, you end up losing a little ground to the losing faction of the prior crisis.

I do see removal of the filibuster. We should have majority rule rather that give those resisting change an arbitrary advantage. I see term limits for the Supreme Court. Otherwise, both parties will try to get younger and younger people on the Court. The Court should retain some connection with the will of the people. I would like to see national mail in voting, but not without all sorts of signature verification and other checks.

Again, the idea is that democracy should respond to the will of the people. I know the white current majority wishes to keep its special place. I just doubt racism and prejudice should continue. We are becoming something else. Our laws should reflect what we are becoming.

***

A reinterpretation of the Second Amendment? It originated as the guaranteer of the rest of the Bill of Rights. The English Civil War and American Revolution took place at a time when the militia took a peak place in deciding major conflicts. Naturally, the Right to Bear Arms was made sacrosanct. The US was a frontier place. The need to protect oneself, one’s family and one’s community was real and every day. There were very good reasons for the Second Amendment at that time. The rural agriculture culture of today is far closer in culture than the urban population, much closer to the old values.

When was a militia last decisive in settling the conflict of a major western power? When was the last time an American community had to defend itself? Is the prevalence of drug gangs a more relevant threat now than in Revolutionary times? Is it not true that the assault weapon ban saved lives? The question of the merits and flaws of the Second Amendment has changed. Values don’t change as easily.

I can look at the Middle East and see almost all adult males have access to assault weapons. As a result, it becomes nigh on impossible for their cultures to be oppressed by racist and religious folks who would like to try. Insurgent war and proxy war are in that environment a good thing. There seems always be somebody interested in being the proxy. You can almost always continue to survive as a culture by at least pretending to support what your potential proxy wants.

That is the sort of thing the Second Amendment codifies. Aggressive want to be dominant cultures face impressive firepower and are forced to back down. It seems to be working. Slowly. A lot of folks are dying in the process.

Arming all adults has its upsides and downsides. The absolute meaning of the Second should not be doubted. Its practical results can be. Depending on your culture, the good or bad sides of allowing adults to run around armed can vary highly. A look at what the culture was a long time ago does not yield the only possible way of looking at things.

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