Criticism of Generational Dynamics

An alternate home for the community from the legacy Fourth Turning Forum
Bob Butler
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Bob Butler »

A quick ask around on the other active turning forums yields a consensus that we are in a crisis mode. With no crisis wars by major power in the Information Age, you may have to wait a really long time for a war trigger event. I'll just wait to see if there is a never again period, if there are attempts to make sure the next pandemic is handled, and that the election process is made more robust. When we get around to that, crisis over, high approaching.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Cool Breeze »

John wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:43 am
** 01-Jan-2021 World View: Strauss-Howe abandoning their own theory
John wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:28 am
> As I'm typing this, I'm listening to the BBC promise a
> "transformational time in American politics," with Biden taking
> office. Hahaha.
Bob Butler wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:18 am
> Well, you might want to drop your claim that you are the only
> poster still loyal to the original S&H turning theory. I have us
> going into the crisis with an effective focused administration
> about to take over. I may be a bit quick in that statement. They
> haven't actually had a chance to do anything yet. You don't seem
> to believe the crisis transformation possible. You may have to
> argue that we are not experiencing a trigger, regeneracy and
> crisis heart.
This is exactly the point -- that Strauss and Howe, and the entire FTF
community -- abandoned their own theory, and I'm pretty much the only person
left who considers generational theory (and the original SH theory after
I've corrected the errors) to be valid.

Strauss and Howe were/are committed Democrats, and when they wrote the
FT book in the 1990s, they clearly intended a Fourth Turning crisis to
be a world war. But after 9/11/2001, they had to abandon their own theory
for purely political reasons. Saying that the Fourth Turning crisis would
be a world war would support the views of the Republican neocons. And so,
like any good leftist, they put left-wing politics ahead of their own
beliefs.

[cont'd]
Phenomenal post John. Spot on. The moment I laid eyes on Howe I realized that his physiognomy was akin to others that had the same predispositions. Namely, feminine or faggy ones. It was funny that BobB also earlier admitted to doing such things in his role playing video games. Friends of mine (previous) who had supported Obama also had these same characteristics, as did Obama himself. It's not a coincidence. None of these people stand for principle and they think they have power, which is funny, since it's only collective, spurious or transietn according to the culture - like women thinking they have real power. Of course, they don't and never will unless they are allowed to. Again, this is biological and evolutionary reality so it always returns to this, no matter what.

John, I'm curious - if I confronted Neil with this question, how do you think he would respond (since I'm not you and it's a totally legit critique)?

Incidentally, I first met Howe's ideas on financially related topics, as he is part of Hedgeye and had some realvision interviews too. As I said before, I always had an innate feeling of distrust in the way he carried himself and with the ideas he put out, though not completely, something seemed missing. And your post details why, my intuition sealing it. So thanks for the post.

Bob Butler
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:16 pm
Strauss and Howe were/are committed Democrats, and when they wrote the FT book in the 1990s, they clearly intended a Fourth Turning crisis to be a world war. But after 9/11/2001, they had to abandon their own theory for purely political reasons. Saying that the Fourth Turning crisis would be a world war would support the views of the Republican neocons. And so, like any good leftist, they put left-wing politics ahead of their own beliefs.
Funny. Most people thought Strauss and Howe conservative. Seems like a bit of revisionist history here.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Cool Breeze »

Bob, you are what we call a "fade" in the betting world. Much like Barack Obama, if he has a take ... go the other way and you're golden almost every time.

Bob Butler
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:17 pm
Bob, you are what we call a "fade" in the betting world. Much like Barack Obama, if he has a take ... go the other way and you're golden almost every time.
No, really. Did you ever talk to Struss and Howe? They were big time into America. They had noted how America could do great things in the periodic and inevitable crises. They had created a system which they perceived of as being not associated with conservative or progressive, the division by parties, but most people perceived of them as conservatives when they were away from their system.

But Strass at least got a bit defensive when I pointed out that each crisis featured a side that wanted to stay the same, a side that wanted to change to fix certain critical flaws, and the the side that wanted things to change were the ones that came up on top. No more kings. No more slaves. No more repeated depressions. No more dictators. The major flaws with the culture got changed. After that was pointed out he started to portray a crisis as a dangerous time rather than celebrating the broad principles that emerged.

It is the promoting of change and growth that drives me, rather than any sort of contrariness. The flaws I see this time are a commitment to division of wealth and a commitment to treating minorities and women poorly. In other words, elitism, racism and sexism. There is a place for conservative thought in America. There are ideas that the red pursue that are worthy. But they embody the greatest flaws in the culture, so they wound up on the losing side.

Again.
Last edited by Bob Butler on Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Cool Breeze »

Let's go in a different direction. Do you think that there is a globalist elite that controls/influences many policies beyond nation states?

Also, it is curious that all of these hate Christianity, as do lefties. Why do you think that is? You are concerned with the treatment of women, and it's funny how dishonest or ignorant people are in considering that without Christianity, women would never have been (and weren't) treated well, or better, as this was never a consideration for any culture in world history. At least according to your standards.

Bob Butler
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:17 pm
Let's go in a different direction. Do you think that there is a globalist elite that controls/influences many policies beyond nation states?
Are there elites? Do they try and succeed to change government policies in such a way to increase their profits? Sure, I believe that. I assume it happens more with the Republicans than the Democrats, but the Democrats are hardly untainted.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:17 pm
Also, it is curious that all of these hate Christianity, as do lefties. Why do you think that is? You are concerned with the treatment of women, and it's funny how dishonest or ignorant people are in considering that without Christianity, women would never have been (and weren't) treated well, or better, as this was never a consideration for any culture in world history. At least according to your standards.
I personally favor freedom of religion, of letting people choose how they worship. I grew up Catholic, but have my arguments with God as you might imagine. Torturing people eternally if you don't follow His whims seems wrong. It is consistent with how people thought in the Agricultural Age, but wrong. I presume the religious powers that be are not acting according to what God would really support.

I do have a problem with religious people trying to use the government to enforce their religious beliefs on people who do not share them. If you think the Constitution's ban on forming an official religion does not extend to the government enforcing religious doctrines of particular religions, I will get rilled up a little.

I will acknowledge varous religions helped women through the years, but now is now.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Cool Breeze »

Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:34 pm
Torturing people eternally if you don't follow His whims seems wrong.
This is not a teaching of Christianity.
I will acknowledge varous religions helped women through the years, but now is now.
Here is a great example of not only denying the fact of what I stated, but somehow pluralizing it ... and then trying to make it an irrelevant point by disregarding it. Not one ounce of integrity in any part of that statement or honest thought.

That's why we think your types are sad. They can never honestly admit things about the world that are true and verifiable.

Bob Butler
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:48 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:34 pm
Torturing people eternally if you don't follow His whims seems wrong.
This is not a teaching of Christianity.
It was what the nuns taught in my Saturday school. If you sinned, your soul would go to hell or purgatory and undergo torments. It could well be different today and different in other religions. Are you suggesting that Catholics are not Christian? That might be an interesting debate.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:48 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:34 pm
I will acknowledge varous religions helped women through the years, but now is now.
Here is a great example of not only denying the fact of what I stated, but somehow pluralizing it ... and then trying to make it an irrelevant point by disregarding it. Not one ounce of integrity in any part of that statement or honest thought.

That's why we think your types are sad. They can never honestly admit things about the world that are true and verifiable.
More than one religion helped women over the years. This does not give them a free pass for today's problems. Are you saying priests should be allowed to abuse children because there were some good deeds done by members of his religion in the past? That would be an unusual position to take. Still, such abuse and the cover up for it was traditional in some churches. Some poor bishops were just caught up by secular morality passing that of religions that are supposed to embody morality.

For the most part, most of the worlds religions date to the Agricultural Age and promote remnants of Agricultural Age thinking. For example, I'm used to people calling Jesus 'The Lord'. Do you really think He took that attitude when He was alive?

I will feely admit to disliking the highly hereditary class oriented Agricultural Age. I try not to take it out on the religious, who sometimes show a hint of the old attitude. For the most part, religious people are good people, make welcome neighbors. I still think a little of their attitude is often a bit off, that the government should not establish an official religion and should not enforce religious doctrines.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Criticism of Generational Dynamics

Post by Cool Breeze »

Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:53 pm
Are you suggesting that Catholics are not Christian? That might be an interesting debate.
Again, please stop the lazy thinking. I stated that the teaching in question is incorrect. And it is. Not once did I bring up what makes one a christian, but of course, there has to be an answer to that.
For the most part, most of the worlds religions date to the Agricultural Age and promote remnants of Agricultural Age thinking. For example, I'm used to people calling Jesus 'The Lord'. Do you really think He took that attitude when He was alive?
You don't know anything about this topic, please stop. The odds are that you don't even know what the Septuagint is, so I won't go any further.

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