Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:42 am
A web site reader asked me to comment on an article on Trump's legacy. The following are excerpts from my response to him:
One thing at least is missing.

World War II had strong racist and xenophobic elements. Count 6 million Jews plus assorted Gypsies, homosexuals and others among the victims. While there is no doubt that Germany should hold the brunt of the blame, in the years after the war some counted the allies and the US as sharing some of the guilt. When people under threat tried to immigrate, they were for the most part turned away. Refusing the chance for asylum was a death warrant.

The result was guilt trip based immigration and asylum laws. If anything like the holocaust started again, the US would not turn folks away. Some of this is still on the books, still is the official policy.

It is not clear that it should be the official policy. Is today’s situation not compatible? Is the situation in part worse because of US drug problems? Does a majority of the country now now longer share the values of the Greatest Generation? In a democracy with a working legislature, you would have a grand debate on policy, and the laws on asylum would be updated to reflect today’s situation and values. Given partisan politics and obstructionist policy, nothing is happening.

So Trump tried to solve the problem using cruelty. That will remain part of his legacy. Sworn to uphold the laws of the United States, he instead perverted them. That will remain part of the Trump legacy. If as I suspect the crisis is domestic, if the old values are doomed to fade, the message to be driven home in the high is that Trump cruelly disrespected the law.

Now John still emphasizes a foreign crisis. I can repeat my doubts here. No major power has initiated a crisis war in the Information Age. The US is not going to start a land war in Asia. China is not going to start a sea war with the US. That being said, the CPP likes brinksmanship. If you dance on the edge of a cliff long enough, the cliff might well give way. Something might well occur.

I’ll just leave it at that.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by John »

** 25-Mar-2021 World View: Xenophobia today
Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:24 pm
> World War II had strong racist and xenophobic elements. Count 6
> million Jews plus assorted Gypsies, homosexuals and others among
> the victims. While there is no doubt that Germany should hold the
> brunt of the blame, in the years after the war some counted the
> allies and the US as sharing some of the guilt. When people under
> threat tried to immigrate, they were for the most part turned
> away. Refusing the chance for asylum was a death warrant.

> The result was guilt trip based immigration and asylum laws. If
> anything like the holocaust started again, the US would not turn
> folks away. Some of this is still on the books, still is the
> official policy.
You're fighting the last war. If there was xenophobia during WW II,
then there's xenophobia on steroids today.

One obvious example is the xenophobia that you and other Democrats
feel towards the 74 million Trump supporters, to the extent of setting
up Stalinist censorship, and discriminating against them in other
ways. You, of all people, are in no position to deny the truth of
that.

But forget domestic xenophobia. The Chinese are full of xenophobia,
racism and hatred -- toward the Japanese, toward the Filipinos, toward
the Indians, toward the Russians. And don't forget the Uighurs, the
Tibetans and the Taiwanese. And having just published a book on
Vietnam, I can assure you it's also directed at the Vietnamese. So
from China alone, the xenophobia is massive.

Leaving China, there's Pakistan vs India, the Taliban vs ISIS, the
Jews vs the Arabs, the Sunnis vs the Shias.

As for the Holocaust, I've already pointed out that there are three
Holocausts going on today, in China, in Burma and in Syria.

So yeah, xenophobia is everywhere today.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:30 pm
You're fighting the last war. If there was xenophobia during WW II, then there's xenophobia on steroids today.
The intent was not to refight the last war. Germany is not going to restart the killing of Jews so nobody has to stop them. The intent was to explain what and why the laws of the land were, and how Trump’s cruelty and disregard for the law are apt to be remembered. Think of how taxation without representation or slavery were simplified and propagandized into simple yet powerful values in prior crisis. I kind of expect this to happen again. Racism. Lawlessness. Cruelty. Just remember that the winners write the history books and guess what will be written?

I will deny that there is a genocide going on in the US. There are no firing squads, no gas chambers, no quicklime in the ditch. There may be some who violated the law facing justice, but that is it. Yes, there is a red blue divide. Yes the Republican association with the racists results in some organized hatred and voter suppression. Yes, there is well deserved outrage and push back. That is not the sort of policy that Germany had last crisis.

Asia? The Middle East? The Balkans? Sure. There are some parts of the world where tribal thinking flourishes. Are we the world’s policeman? Are we ready to use force to make the world live according to our values? Probably not. We will contain the biggest threats if it seems prudent. We can push somewhat in that direction, but we are not going to wipe out tribal thinking by force. Our first priority is US based organizations glorifying and amplifying the approach.

JCP

Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by JCP »

Biden is calling the filibuster "a relic of Jim Crow." So what does that make the Bill of Rights? Perhaps "a painful legacy of slavery"? America is under assault. I don't see the republic surviving this.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

JCP wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:41 pm
Biden is calling the filibuster "a relic of Jim Crow." So what does that make the Bill of Rights? Perhaps "a painful legacy of slavery"? America is under assault. I don't see the republic surviving this.
The Bill of Rights grew out of the crisis of the US Revolution. It was proposed to protect the rights of white male protestant landowners, but over the centuries has expanded to include others. Slavery was not the issue in the US Revolution.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Bob Butler wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:22 am
JCP wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:41 pm
Biden is calling the filibuster "a relic of Jim Crow." So what does that make the Bill of Rights? Perhaps "a painful legacy of slavery"? America is under assault. I don't see the republic surviving this.
The Bill of Rights grew out of the crisis of the US Revolution. It was proposed to protect the rights of white male protestant landowners, but over the centuries has expanded to include others. Slavery was not the issue in the US Revolution.
Ha! It won't be an issue until the Left decides to do away with the Bill of Rights, then it will become "a painful and pernicious symbol of White Supremacy and black pain"...

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:45 am
Bob Butler wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:22 am
JCP wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:41 pm
Biden is calling the filibuster "a relic of Jim Crow." So what does that make the Bill of Rights? Perhaps "a painful legacy of slavery"? America is under assault. I don't see the republic surviving this.
The Bill of Rights grew out of the crisis of the US Revolution. It was proposed to protect the rights of white male protestant landowners, but over the centuries has expanded to include others. Slavery was not the issue in the US Revolution.
Ha! It won't be an issue until the Left decides to do away with the Bill of Rights, then it will become "a painful and pernicious symbol of White Supremacy and black pain"...
They are currently adding to the list in terms of voting rights. It is the Republicans who are out to deny individual power to maintain class superiorities.

I am a bit dubious that in creating such rights as they are exercising a not enumerated power. Still, both parties have done that so much that the courts are in no position to complain. Rights were once created only by amendment.

It seems complaining about liberals seems to be so much a goal that you don't bother with truth?

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:11 am
** 30-Mar-2021 World View: Generational Eras vs Regeneracy Event
tim wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:37 am
I keep waiting for some defining event to tell me the Fourth Turning is here. Something like a stock market crash, Chinese military attack, etc.

I think we are in the middle of it now. The mass panic and irrationality is here and has taken hold.
Turnings / Eras are not defined by events. The Second Turning (Awakening era) begins when the first postwar generation (Baby Boomers) comes of age. The Fourth Turning (Crisis Era) begins when the Nomad generation (Generation-X) comes to power. In the current time, the Crisis era began in 2003.

When you're talking about events, you're usually referring to "Regeneracy Events." These are events, usually but not necessarily occurring during the Crisis Era, that shock the population and regenerate civic unity for the first time since the end of the previous crisis war (WW II, 1945). Obviously, there is no civic unity today, but a regeneracy event (such as a Chinese missile attack on American soil) would end political differences and result in civic unity.
That is sort of right, but not when the crisis is domestic. It is not true when the Union and Confederate were fighting one another, or this time with the Red and Blue. Obviously, Fort Sumpter did not create instant unity, except within the two cultures. Each culture just tended to go all in for whatever their cause was supposed to be. Even then in places like the Free State of Jones that did not depend on slavery were not united with the Confederacy.

In a similar way there were conservatives clinging to the old culture though many crises to a lesser extent. The were royalist sympathizers in the Revolution, and people who didn’t care for FDR long after the economy collapsed.

But in a foreign crisis, after a Lexington and Concord or Pearl Harbor style event, a unifying effect such as John mentions does in general occur.

It seems like for each crisis issue there can be a trigger. Last year was eventful. We had COVID hitting New York, George Floyd’s death and if you can separate the protests against racists from the racist insurrection, you might count the capitol insurrection. I’m of mixed mind on that. The objective on January 6 for the racist organizations was to keep a racist president in power. I don’t think you can separate the blue insistence on equality from the red attempts to cling to power. It does complicate a turning based analysis of what seems to be a domestic crisis.

If you are looking for events, I would also look for a point where the crisis is pretty much decided, even if the conservatives don’t want to give up, care more for their worldview than for their chances of making it dominate. The Revolution may not have been decided until the surrender at Yorktown. The US Civil War was up in the air until Atlanta fell and the March to the Sea. Anyone vaguely rational could see how the crisis was going to end after that, but who is rational in a crisis? Even if the cause is lost there are those who will try to make the cause live on.

If you see this as a domestic crisis, three court cases coming up could be important. Dominion against Fox News ought to expose the Big Lie big time. Trump against Georgia should make it clear that it was the Republicans who were seeking voter fraud. New York against the Trump organization should show how Trump tends to operate outside the law.

How you can believe in the Republican worldview after all that? Thing is, the racists don’t care. If you want white superiority, you will do anything to maintain it. Even democracy is expendable.

It should be like Yorktown and the March to the Sea. It ought to be checkmate. The Republicans are voting in partisan lockstep against immensely popular bills. It ought to be over.

But you don’t let go of one’s values that easily. It follows that you have to find a way to believe.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by John »

** 30-Mar-2021 World View: Civil unity
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:38 pm
> That is sort of right, but not when the crisis is domestic. It is
> not true when the Union and Confederate were fighting one another,
> or this time with the Red and Blue. Obviously, Fort Sumpter did
> not create instant unity, except within the two cultures. Each
> culture just tended to go all in for whatever their cause was
> supposed to be. Even then in places like the Free State of Jones
> that did not depend on slavery were not united with the
> Confederacy.
You're right that a civil war is different from an external war, but
the concept of a "Regeneracy Event" is still the same. In a crisis
civil war, each of the two sides is unified, while in an external war,
each of the two countries is unified.

The story about the Rwanda civil war illustrates this. Hutus and
Tutsis lived in the same cities, often on the same streets, and their
children played together. But one day, a "regeneracy event" occurred.

On April 6, 1994, the plane carrying President Juvenal Habyarimana,
the current Hutu president, was shot down as it was descending into
Kigali. There were no survivors. That was the triggering regeneracy
event. In unified the Hutus against the Tutsis.

After the crash, a Hutu leader announced over the radio such things as
"Cut down the tall trees," or "Crush the cockroaches," or "The graves
are not yet full." In another thread, I compared this situation to
extremely dry underbrush in a forest. All it took was that small
spark to result in a massive "forest fire" -- mass slaughter by the
Hutus of the Tutsis that spread across the country rapidly, like
wildfire.

The radio announcement, which was heard all over the country, may have
been some sort of prearranged signal. On cue, each Hutu did something
like the following: Picked up a machete, went to the Tutsi home next
door, or down the street, murdered and dismembered the man and
children, raped the wife and then murdered and dismembered her. Close
to a million Tutsis were tortured, raped and murdered in a three month
period. So the Regeneracy Event did not unify the country, but it
unified each of the two sides.

In the case of the American Civil War, the attack on Fort Sumter was a
"regeneracy event" that unified the North and the South against each
other.
Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:38 pm
> It seems like for each crisis issue there can be a trigger. Last
> year was eventful. We had COVID hitting New York, George Floyd’s
> death and if you can separate the protests against racists from
> the racist insurrection, you might count the capitol insurrection.
> I’m of mixed mind on that. The objective on January 6 for the
> racist organizations was to keep a racist president in power. I
> don’t think you can separate the blue insistence on equality from
> the red attempts to cling to power. It does complicate a turning
> based analysis of what seems to be a domestic crisis.
If the country were headed for a full-scale crisis civil war -- which
it is not -- then the Wuhan Coronavirus and George Floyd's death might
appear to be regeneracy events, since they unified the Democrat tribes
into forming a Stalinist state against the 74 million innocent Trump
supporters, and into activating the violent antifa-blm fascists in a
number of cities. However, when a REAL regeneracy event occurs, like
a Chinese missile strike on an American city, then the Democrat's
Stalinist state will be quickly forgotten, and the country will unify
to fight the common enemy.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:44 pm
If the country were headed for a full-scale crisis civil war -- which it is not -- then the Wuhan Coronavirus and George Floyd's death might appear to be regeneracy events, since they unified the Democrat tribes into forming a Stalinist state against the 74 million innocent Trump supporters, and into activating the violent antifa-blm fascists in a number of cities. However, when a REAL regeneracy event occurs, like a Chinese missile strike on an American city, then the Democrat's Stalinist state will be quickly forgotten, and the country will unify to fight the common enemy.
Agreed we are not heading for an all out civil war.

I disagree that the racists are so innocent. It is not that all conservatives are racist. Again, not all conservative ideas are elitist or racist. Still, a crisis removes the greatest flaws in the culture. The racist perversion is due to be removed.

I realize you are into xenophobia. II you are a tribal thinker, it becomes natural to hate those who are different and to take steps against them. In many of the ugliest most troubled parts of the world, xenophobia is still a potent factor. Some people wallow in it, while others seek to immigrate.

In the US, when it comes to murder, voter suppression and insurrection, is racism not a flaw in the culture? If you hold democracy, equality and human rights as having a higher moral place than murder, lawlessness and voter suppression, can your ideologically biased little mind not see xenophobia as a flaw to be removed? Is it not the nature of a crisis to solve the greatest flaw in the culture?

Of course, a racist would not consider racism to be a flaw. To a racist, democracy, rule of law and equality are flaws. Xenophobia does that to you.

I still am waiting for a major power crisis war. I still do not see the US starting a land war with in Asia, or China starting a sea war with the US. In the US I see the blue trying to use the Information Age approach of using non violence, protest and legislation to change the culture, while the red prefer to instigate the Industrial Age method of violence. Any time a protest starts, the red will use it as an excuse to exercise their xenophobic habit of hating and violence.

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