Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

John wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:31 pm
fix rape? it's essential to the evolutionary process. without rape, the human race would have become extent extinct eons ago.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Tom Mazanec wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:39 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:04 pm
Tom Mazanec wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:03 am
Everything changes. But only STEM things change in one direction consistently...and even for that, Europe had some regression after the Fall of Rome. Slavery was abolished in the South 1865 (effectively) and Brazil in 1888. Yet it arose in Germany in the 20th century in a form far more malignant than the Confederacy's, and only Hitler's blunder in basically attacking the rest of the world except a couple friends ended it...and it was a close thing for awhile.

I am not defending slavery. I am pointing out that the argument that the law and the majority of the voters support at least some level of abortion could have been used by a Southron in 1859 to do so, just by changing a word.
First, what do you mean by a STEM thing? I may have it. I think. I have STEM education as way to use AI to teach Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. That doesn’t relate to the problem we are dealing with.

And what do you mean that the arc of history exists only in technology. I argue that man evolved as a hunter gatherer, has instincts and emotions for that, and these drives have been applied differently in the Agricultural, Industrial and Information ages. These ages change when there are great differences in how information is processed (spoken, written, printed, computed) what weapons are used (clubs, metal, chemical, nuclear) or how man governs himself (chiefs, kings, representative democracy and... I kind of believe computer networked democracy will come someday, but we haven’t sufficiently solved the security problem yet.)

And Catholic Christianity is centered on one medieval perception of things. It provides a complete perspective for how things were and are is centered on one old perspective. You get suck in one way of looking at things. Not everybody is stuck. We had the protestant reformation and a tendency toward more secular values which effected many people. We have crossed two Age boundaries since then. We have changed in many ways, but some cling to another time, ignore, disregard or simply do not notice the changes in values.

As well as ages changing, we have civilizations rising and falling. Under these conditions, a smooth linear transformation should hardly be expected.

I am willing to acknowledge that some groups will cling to an ancient set of values, but am far more with turning theory that values change every crisis, generally driven by a civic generation setting a new pattern. There is a wish to get rid of great flaws in civilization at the time of the crisis. This is generally done: colonial imperialism, noble privilege, slavery, autocratic aggression. Values which counter these flaws become basic to the society: independence, equality, freedom, containment. If your basic way of perceiving things can’t wrap around change and growth, places an emphasis on one perfect being who never changes, you have a problem. Your method of thinking is not apt to mesh with one who is into turning theory.

(I have managed to hit all four of my common ways of looking at history in this note: evolutionary biology, turnings, civilizations and ages.)

Yes, the southerners could have changed much with a word, but they were more addicted to using slaves and were willing to risk death rather than change their values. People are highly addicted to their worldviews. You need to clarify that their values will not work anymore with an Atlanta or Hiroshima for things to truly shift. So what happens if containment works well enough to prevent the edict of the civic generation? Will the conservatives try to cling to old values indefinitely, prevent the turnings from turning?

A side story. There were a bunch of mostly American prisoners held in Japan at the end of World War II. As it would take some time for the occupiers to reach them, they 'borrowed' a train and headed for an already occupied area. In doing so, they passed through a city, or a place where a city once was. Instead, smoke, debries, ash, destruction. The answer was cheers. After living for some time as the old Japanese treat prisoners, they could hardly be blamed. They then passed through another former city. Same result. Cheers. Applause. They then passed through a third former city.

Silence.

But that is how hard people will cling to their values, will refuse to admit they are wrong.
Those areas are the only ones in which quality is consistently improving across human history. The other evolutions you cite have all been powered by this improvement, and are far less consistent.

Catholic Christianity can function under most forms of human government, assuming basic rights for all humans from conception to natural death are observed.

I am not sure you understand what I was saying about Southrons. I could take most of your arguments supporting the right of abortion, change the word 'abortion' to 'slavery', and comfortably place it in the mouth of a mid-19th Century slaveholder.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:01 pm
FullMoon wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:43 am
The "progress" that you see is something akin to an evil spell. Mass formation psychosis,etc whatnot the phenomenon is real. But when you are enveloped in it, you cannot see outside of the range of thought. It's a cult and you are an adherent. Intellectual discourse becomes impossible with cult members therefore. That is why people here get frustrated with you.
Let me go down again some of the recently encountered problems, signs that we are not in the best of all possible worlds, and what the progressives have attempted to do with them.

They see insurrection, upsetting the peaceful transfer of power, lying about whether the election was corrupt, as a problem. They would use rule of law to fix it. Change procedure to make it harder for another to make the attempt.

They see the attempts to reduce science’s attempts to save lives as a problem. They would like to protect the healers, to resist those who value economics over lives.

They see prejudice mixed with inappropriate use of force. Police killing minorities. Spree shooters going into minority safe places. They would see rule of law punish the transgression. They would ease the violence, killing and prejudice if they could, but violent prejudice has become a significant part of the culture. How to change that is a problem.

We have seen attempts to gerrymander voting maps and prevent minorities from voting. The democrats would establish voting rights, but this has been blocked by a coordinated effort by the GOP.

We have seen autocratic powers attempt to expand their influence by force. We have answered with containment, with proxy war, sanctions, preparedness, and other methods. This has not worked as well as hoped. Sometimes Marx was right. The oppression of noble hereditary governments and colonial imperial administrations gets so bad that the people being defended are rooting for the Marxist revolutionaries. But containment must be tried.

You are not supposed to use government for your own profit. Trump regularly directed the secret service and foreign governments into his own facilities. Some token efforts have been made to curb this use of government power to self profit, but frankly this has been a minor effort compared to other things.

That will do for the moment. It indicates society if flawed and the sort of thing that has been tried to fix these flaws.

Do the conservatives have an equivalent? Do they represent anything other than maximizing their own power? The above efforts leave a progressive with the impression that power is what conservatives are about. I would be interested in a similar list of issues and how greed for power and wealth is not the primary concern of conservatives. The NRA is not about getting income from the gun industry. There is a sincere concern for the Second Amendment. Police Unions are about best defending the public, not about how to implement government racism. List how conservatives value various issues in a positive way. Frankly, as a progressive, it looks like the conservative movement is on the wrong side of every issue.

List how I am wrong.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:15 pm
John wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:31 pm
fix rape? it's essential to the evolutionary process. without rape, the human race would have become extent extinct eons ago.
Rape is favorable to the human species by the measure of survival of the fittest. Those who use force spread their genes. Those progressives trying to improve life do not, however, believe in spreading rape, war, prejudice, crime regardless of how fit the perpetrator. This is why John became pariah, the advocation of violence rather than viewing it as something to be shunned.

I'd rather believe this is not a basic difference between conservatives and liberal, that conservatives are not OK with using force and power to oppress others. Fell free to be explicit about it if you'd like.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Tom Mazanec wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:17 pm
This is why John became pariah, the advocation of violence rather than viewing it as something to be shunned.
Let me check, BB...you mean John Xenakis?

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:20 pm
Tom Mazanec wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:17 pm
This is why John became pariah, the advocation of violence rather than viewing it as something to be shunned.
Let me check, BB...you mean John Xenakis?
Yes. If you are going to advocate rape as a positive thing, you are apt to become pariah in a blue place.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

John wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:50 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:20 pm
Tom Mazanec wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:17 pm

Let me check, BB...you mean John Xenakis?
Yes. If you are going to advocate rape as a positive thing, you are apt to become pariah in a blue place.
monday, November 28th, 2022

you're a complete idiot. I don't make the rules I just report them. sex, genocide, rape, and War are all essential to The evolutionary process, and it has nothing to do with politics. and I don't live in your fantasy blue world, where Democrats could overthrow the government take control of everything, and then fix everything.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 pm
In the process of the recent abortion debate, we have come across a lot of ways of looking at values. Just to go over it.

The catholic view of things is that you just have to imitate the known, fixed and perfect values of God, his messiah and his church. If you are gung ho into turning theory, society is viewed as flawed, and each crisis removes the worst flaws and creates new values to prevent the flaws from happening again. This might be the difference between a fixed and evolving view of values. I’m sure that catholic vs blue is not the only place where such a conflict exists. Some think values unchanging. Others see them as improving, evolving.

Conservatives with honor can promote the preservation of the best part of a culture’s values. Progressive with honor can see flaws and try to fix them. At best, the tension between the two can be positive. Still, no real world value system is perfect, and not every change is a good one. One can see how the conservatives an progressives eye each other askance. I look at the criminality, violence, prejudice, anti science and profiteering of the GOP and think myself justified in looking askance. The GOP is similarly doubtful, but where are the specifics?

Humans are the dominant species on the planet. There is no need to become more fit and thus make ourselves more dominant. We can make our societies more pleasant instead, so we don’t expect to be the victims of violence, prejudice, power selfishness, autocratic expansion or other evils. But, our having to become ever more fit has remained a priority of a few. Others would rather make society more pleasant instead of more fit.

I should not have implied that someone who practices and advocates rape would be pariah only in blue areas. In a red area, seeing a rape in progress, would you be more tempted to come to the girl’s aid, or wait in line behind the rapist to prove how fit you are? I have gone against the catholic values as fixed and unchanging, but the commandment to love one’s neighbor sounds like they would be on the woman’s side too. The commandment to love one's neighbor was emphatically not an attempt to encourage rape.

But there are many forms of values conflict. Why they exist should be understandable. It should not be a question of one’s own value system becomes the only one you try to understand, any other demonized as an evil spell.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:32 pm
John wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:50 pm
you're a complete idiot. I don't make the rules I just report them. sex, genocide, rape, and War are all essential to The evolutionary process, and it has nothing to do with politics. and I don't live in your fantasy blue world, where Democrats could overthrow the government take control of everything, and then fix everything.
Freedom and independance imply the government does not interfere with choice. Thus, a blue government does not try to take control of everything. The fixing has to be more careful than the GOP's effort to eliminate choice. And no, the GOP tendency towards criminality, prejudice and insurrection has made these things very much part of politics.

Clarkmod
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Clarkmod »

spottybrowncow wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:12 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:32 pm
Thus, a blue government does not try to take control of everything. The fixing has to be more careful than the GOP's effort to eliminate choice. And no, the GOP tendency towards criminality, prejudice and insurrection has made these things very much part of politics.
"projection" defined in Psychology Today:

"Projection is the process of displacing one’s feelings onto a different person, animal, or object. The term is most commonly used to describe defensive projection—attributing one’s own unacceptable urges to another."

It is well established that the left projects its own repugnant urges onto the right, and the above quote from our own little leftist, BB, is about as good an example as you'll find. Clearly, the left wants to control everything, and controlling what is said online is only a small part. Musk wants to restore free speech, the left wants to block it. They try to disguise their objective by saying they want to eliminate "hate speech," but that is misleading at best. "Hate speech" is an inescapable requirement for freedom. Whoever gets to define (and ban) "hate speech" controls all public discourse. Sound familiar?

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