Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Guest »

Bob Butler wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:09 pm
In the second impeachment, the speech was recorded and the congress folk were direct witnesses to the result. The impeachment vote in the house is the equivalent of the grand jury in an ordinary persecution. The defendant doesn't get to present his side until the trial. I suspect there will be enough time allowed for any evidence to be presented, but as usual there will be no evidence presented of fraud as there is none. If it existed, why not present it to anyone? Likely not a lot of time allotted. Congress has enough to do. But enough. Especially with McConnell holding things over Trump so he will hopefully behave. If he goes crazy with pardoning everyone, a pardon would be interpreted as an admission of guilt. Maybe not? With Biden already in power there will be time enough. No total urgency. Time ought to be given to Trump. We will see how he uses it.
It sounds as though you are advocating for a Moscow show trial.

The Democrats rushed the impeachment because it is a political witch hunt. As the events of 6 January are pieced together, it appears that the people who breached the perimeter of the Capitol did so around half an hour before President Trump finished his speech. This suggests their actions were premeditated and not incited by the words President Trump said (even though President Trump never called for physical violence).

Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:06 pm
It sounds as though you are advocating for a Moscow show trial.

The Democrats rushed the impeachment because it is a political witch hunt. As the events of 6 January are pieced together, it appears that the people who breached the perimeter of the Capitol did so around half an hour before President Trump finished his speech. This suggests their actions were premeditated and not incited by the words President Trump said (even though President Trump never called for physical violence).
I favor and it seems likely that the trial will include an ample opportunity for a defense. If such does not materialize, I will join with the likely ruckus that will no doubt arise. As Biden and the other blues will not want such a ruckus, an ample opportunity for a defense seems likely. Last I heard, Giuliani was among the lawyers that are planned to defend. (Edit: The defense team still has not been finalized.)

I do not anticipate evidence of systematic voter fraud as if such evidence existed Trump would have presented it long since. I just have a hard time thinking of why he would sit on the evidence through all the court cases. The lack of evidence is likely why his lawyers never pretended that the evidence existed in court. Lying to a judge would get them disbarred. I could be wrong. We will see come the trial.

I kind of believe the insurrection was based on a Trump lie. He just wanted badly to delay the final certification of his election opponent. To do that, he threw so many people under the bus that its wheels no longer touch the ground.

I acknowledge that some planned the insurrection in advance and needed no preparatory speech, but that doesn't mean that the speech wasn't given and there weren't lots of people listening to it.
Last edited by Bob Butler on Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

The conservative and unraveling instinct is to not solve problems, to maintain the structure that gave them power in the past. The instinct is to ask not what you can do for the government, but what the government can do for you. We are now entering a crisis heart where the mood changes, when a strong focused federal government solves problems.

The Republican Party has had elitist and racist elements. During the unravelling, they made hay with it. Now, the mood has shifted somewhat. The only way out of the economic crisis is to get the elites to pay their fair share. Black Lives Matter has made it less cost effective for a political party to win with a racist vote. There is a chance to shake off the do nothing, elitist, racist tendencies that have put the Republicans in so much trouble in a crisis. They will not be a big tent party until they do. Maybe by the next unravelling’s start they will manage it.

Predicting a collapse of civilization or anticipating a nuclear war isn’t going to do it. There is much positive in conservative thought, in the cavalier rural culture. It just has to be refocused. That isn’t being done here.

I can see the crisis problems can be solved within a few years. We already have a vaccine. When immunity becomes common, the economy should recover. A new set of racial regulations could be passed. The big lie that generated the red violence could be exposed. Thus I see the crisis heart being shorter than when a crisis war had to be fought. I would expect a crisis war to last about four years, the crisis never again movement to slightly extend the crisis period. Last time the high was short, the awakening short if intense. A progressive time could extend through the crisis heart, the high when the crisis values are hammered home, then the awakening where I see the key issue is redoubling our efforts in global warming. By the time the awakening starts, the science, hurricanes and fires will be obvious, the economic difficulties past, and the new prophets will need something to yell about.

But after that, another unravelling will occur. This is apt to be a reaction to the perceived global warming concern of the awakening. Foreign lands will be being flooded or otherwise rendered unusable. Forced migrations will start. The US will have much of the unused land and resources which will be defended. I can see in a natural selfish period a movement to maintain a superior position.

The conservatives will have a battle to be fought. They lost this one. Enough people are apt to cling to Trump’s influence to make a big tent impossible to build. They may not be able to regain dominance during the crisis heart, high and awakening period.

They may have to be ready come the next unraveling. Lots of time. A different crowd will raise similar anti immigrant issues. Something beyond predicting nuke wars, crisis wars and protecting big lies will be necessary.

But that doesn’t seem to be today’s focus.

Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

Tribal thought would involve the perceived difference between the supposedly superior white race and the Jews, developing a xenophobic hatred towards the Jews, and taking action to continue oppression possibly including violence against the Jews.

The WEIRD counter approach would be to promote equality and oppose prejudice. Seek universal principles rather than loyalty to a specific group of people and the opposition to another.

Promoting the tribal thinking thought pattern doesn’t seem the way to approach the problem.

Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:14 pm
Moving to the South Pole is sounding good about now.
Antartica. I might suggest that is not a great place to move.

If you believe civilization is about to collapse, many jobs doing science down there would go away. Not a lot of cash for science would be floating around.

You’d have to be a specialist in a field like ice or penguins. Most people don’t have the right specialities for the jobs down there.

The people down there might be WEIRD. They read a lot. They examine things from an abstract scientific mind set. It is like John at the corner of MIT and Havahd. If you have a tribal mindset, as a lot of folks around here do, your are not apt to find as enthusiastic audience as you might. Look for more rural environments I think?

Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

John has repeatedly claimed that most posters here are more intelligent than I. I’m not a big believer in that claim. In my professional career, I wound up by accident working all three legs of the nuclear triad: ICBMs, bombers and sub launched missiles. For a hobby, I danced the genealogy data bases. I picked up a trend in Tolkien’s writings which few have. I have been a regular at several turning web sites. I figure I have nothing to prove.

But I disagree that agreeing with one worldview or another is a measure of intelligence. On various websites with a variety of perspectives represented, there are smart and less smart people of all persuasions.

I will be specific with tribal versus WEIRD. If the educated is part of Western, Educated, Industrial, Rich, Democratic, then two representative WEIRD folks are Newton and Einstein. If reading a lot enhances the ability to handle abstract thought, one can argue that WEIRD folks can be intelligent enough.

Henrich emphasizes though that the non reader’s mind is just oriented different. Tribal thinkers are often better at personal interactions, in handling groups. The same native human intelligence is focused on different tasks. It is hard to measure one against the other. Therefore, I prefer not to.

If Newton and Einstein represent the WEIRD, I would nominate Hitler as representing tribal thought. Divide between the master race and the Jew. Develop xenophobia against the Jew. Employ any means to seek an advantage of the master race over the Jew including use of violence. One could use Trump as an example as well, seeking advantage for rural white Americans over minorities. The tools he could use in America were different, the attitude similar.

That brings one to the difference between using tribal thinking to understand parts of the world where tribal thinking is common, and advocating tribal thinking. The former seems an honorable undertaking. In terms of understanding parts of the world where tribal thinking remains common, John does well. Advocating tribal thinking? Not so good.

There is an alternative in WEIRD. One should be aware of it. It is better to be ready to fight for the abstract principle of containment than to fight for the master race. We should contain China because many autocratic countries would expand using force if they could, not because we have a xenophobic hatred of the Chinese.

Anyway, what worldview you hold is not a measure of intelligence. Your ability to rationalize your worldview might be. By that measure, I have not been amazed by the locals.

Anyway, Henrich emphasized that tribal thinkers tend to be more rural, not readers. It is not just the US where tribal thinking is common in rural areas, WEIRD in urban areas. If you are into tribal thinking, Antartica might not be the place to go if you want to be among like thinkers.

Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

Again, the crackdown is against using social media to plan criminal activity. I hope you do not advocate criminal activity? If this is a red leaning sight, has either the government or phpBB tried to limit the presentation of red thought?

Granted, some social media sights are over reacting. After the capitol riots, I am not surprised.

Just visited a Facebook turning site. No apparent difficulties. Parlor found an alternate domain provider and is starting back up.

John
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by John »

** 18-Jan-2021 World View: Advocating criminal activity

No members of this forum advocate criminal activity. That's an
extremely offensive accusation, and it is what Democrats have been
doing for the last year with antifa-blm fascist violence.

Observer

Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Observer »

Bob...
You're always putting your foot in your mouth. I still think that you have something to add to this great composition we are witnessing and which has been, as yet by anyone, most thoroughly described by John. You just have to add in those emotional outbursts which are rude and offensive. It's true, you do it.
If you could spend a bit more time composing and editing your contributions I would read them. Entering debates and trying to convince people isn't your forte. Shorten the length as well, most people need concise and clear ideas, if you can.

John
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by John »

** 18-Jan-2021 World View: Emotional outbursts
Observer wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:45 pm
> Bob... You're always putting your foot in your mouth. I still
> think that you have something to add to this great composition we
> are witnessing and which has been, as yet by anyone, most
> thoroughly described by John. You just have to add in those
> emotional outbursts which are rude and offensive. It's true, you
> do it.

> If you could spend a bit more time composing and editing your
> contributions I would read them. Entering debates and trying to
> convince people isn't your forte. Shorten the length as well,
> most people need concise and clear ideas, if you can.
These are not emotional outbursts. Butler really does believe all the
offensive things he says about the other members of this forum.

Butler holds to the Far Leftist Thinking with Democratic Party
policies: crackdown on civil liberties, censorship, strict government
control of the economy, imposition of strict racial and gender
controls, rigging the election, impeachment hoaxes, white self-hatred,
black fatherlessness, state control of black mothers, welfare
preferred over employment, silence all dissent, support for antifa-blm
fascist violence, bailing antifa-blm violent criminals out of jail,
cancel the First Amendment, and so forth.

These are not emotional outbursts. These are things he really
believes, along with other Democrats.

And he claims that the reason that the other members of this forum
don't agree with the same policies is because of Tribal Thinking.
That may be extremely offensive, but it's what he actually believes.

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