Societal collapse

Cool Breeze
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

There you go again with the "against solving problems" as if somehow you are the knowledgeable arbiter of what the problem is, or if it can be solved.

You have given me no reason via your posts to believe that you know what the problems actually are, or if anyone can "solve them". But go ahead if you must, please inform me of what any problem is and how it can be "solved."

Bob Butler
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:22 am
There you go again with the "against solving problems" as if somehow you are the knowledgeable arbiter of what the problem is, or if it can be solved.

You have given me no reason via your posts to believe that you know what the problems actually are, or if anyone can "solve them". But go ahead if you must, please inform me of what any problem is and how it can be "solved."
I read the crisis problems as of now include curing COVID, the economic fallout of COVID, the violence and systematic racism protested against this last summer, with global warming receiving at least an honorable mention and maybe a little bit the bridge work and other infrastructure. All of these Trump failed to address. All of these Biden has plans to address and has not been shy about sharing them.

As usual, once the federal regeneracy takes place, a focused government focuses on solving the greatest problems of the culture. Those that desire the status quo to continue will fade.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:55 am
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:22 am
There you go again with the "against solving problems" as if somehow you are the knowledgeable arbiter of what the problem is, or if it can be solved.

You have given me no reason via your posts to believe that you know what the problems actually are, or if anyone can "solve them". But go ahead if you must, please inform me of what any problem is and how it can be "solved."
I read the crisis problems as of now include curing COVID, the economic fallout of COVID, the violence and systematic racism protested against this last summer, with global warming receiving at least an honorable mention and maybe a little bit the bridge work and other infrastructure. All of these Trump failed to address. All of these Biden has plans to address and has not been shy about sharing them.

As usual, once the federal regeneracy takes place, a focused government focuses on solving the greatest problems of the culture. Those that desire the status quo to continue will fade.
1. You can't cure a virus. This is not a lethal virus, either (definition: lethal viruses kill healthy people).
2. We (the planners) caused the economic fallout of Covid via central planning and propaganda.
3. You can't define systematic racism, because it is a fictional concept (which is the point of it). I'm ok with hearing you try, though.
4. Warming isn't a problem. Cooling might be, and we'd still be able to combat that as we always have, and it's clearly much worse.
5. I'm ok with infrastructure spending. Trump was too. The democrats had zero interest in doing many things they shared with him vision wise.

Since points 1-4 above put you in a very leftist/progressive brainwash camp, I am hardly able to think we'll be able to continue a true dialogue. First, you'll have to address my questions.

Bob Butler
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:46 pm

1. You can't cure a virus. This is not a lethal virus, either (definition: lethal viruses kill healthy people).
2. We (the planners) caused the economic fallout of Covid via central planning and propaganda.
3. You can't define systematic racism, because it is a fictional concept (which is the point of it). I'm ok with hearing you try, though.
4. Warming isn't a problem. Cooling might be, and we'd still be able to combat that as we always have, and it's clearly much worse.
5. I'm ok with infrastructure spending. Trump was too. The democrats had zero interest in doing many things they shared with him vision wise.

Since points 1-4 above put you in a very leftist/progressive brainwash camp, I am hardly able to think we'll be able to continue a true dialogue. First, you'll have to address my questions.
I see a number of statements of questionable truth, not questions. In response…

1: Was Trump cured? If not, what do you define cure as? The virus does kill healthy people. If you follow the coastal media they report on the children and young adults without preexisting conditions that have been killed, though it is of course worse for elderly people with such conditions. The key would be changing the pattern from an exponential growth in the number of cases to an exponential decay, which we currently plan on doing through vaccination. That would in time relieve the stress on the health care system. It would not totally protect those who refuse the vaccine and protections, but what can you do”

2. The planners seemed to think they could keep the economy healthy without bringing the number of cases well down first. As is, they did neither. It may only be a terrible and lethal mistake, but the lying was done so willfully that it is hard to forgive. It was done through minimizing the importance of the precautions which you could label as propaganda. It was sort of centrally planned, but the effort to fight the virus ended up in the hand of the states and of regional alliances of states. That will soon change.

3. Systematic racism includes bad cops murdering people and the best jobs being reserved for white people. There is more to it than that, but those are biggies. It is possible to define it.

4. I listed already a bunch of factors effecting climate. The big one is the increase in warmth due to human production of greenhouse gasses. Are you a professional in the field? Silly question I guess. You seem to be a political internet warrior far more invested in the politics of denying problems than the science of understanding them. Anyone can declare a baseless opinion on the net, but they can’t make it true.

It was a long time since I last checked the solar cycles. Once upon a time I bumped into a guy who thought a hot sun was the dominant factor, and we were heading into a new minimum. That turns out to be wrong. Cycle 24 was a little cool, but the temperatures kept going up. Cycle 25 is predicted to be pretty much like 24. I am not a pro, but I do keep up with the research.

5: We agree that something ought to be done, but disagree on who was responsible for the obstruction.

Points one through four put you distinctly in the ignore the problem and the science red camp. I don’t see brainwashing as being involved. Deliberate brainwashing by the government seems limited to military boot camps, where introducing recruits as quickly as possible to the military subculture is accepted. The worthy elements of red thought include small government, reduced taxes, and the habit of a low density population to be independent rather the cooperative and specialized. The racism and elitism is not so worthy.

So long as you ignore the facts and the science, I agree that further dialogue would be futile. But then again, attempting to change worldviews is essentially futile. Japan suffered roughly 3,000,000 deaths in World War II before they were willing to change their culture. They had a population of around 73 million, close enough to the count of people who voted for Trump recently. COVID has not reached that sort of death count yet. It is not likely to with the vaccines imminent. The desire to cling to existing culture is very strong. We will just have to see if the culture of ignoring precautions can be touched by the death count due to the holiday season on top of an already surge with the health care system already on national overload. I keep waiting for people to learn, but they don’t seem to.

Cool Breeze
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:45 pm
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:46 pm

1. You can't cure a virus. This is not a lethal virus, either (definition: lethal viruses kill healthy people).
2. We (the planners) caused the economic fallout of Covid via central planning and propaganda.
3. You can't define systematic racism, because it is a fictional concept (which is the point of it). I'm ok with hearing you try, though.
4. Warming isn't a problem. Cooling might be, and we'd still be able to combat that as we always have, and it's clearly much worse.
5. I'm ok with infrastructure spending. Trump was too. The democrats had zero interest in doing many things they shared with him vision wise.

Since points 1-4 above put you in a very leftist/progressive brainwash camp, I am hardly able to think we'll be able to continue a true dialogue. First, you'll have to address my questions.
I see a number of statements of questionable truth, not questions. In response…

1: Was Trump cured? If not, what do you define cure as? The virus does kill healthy people. If you follow the coastal media they report on the children and young adults without preexisting conditions that have been killed, though it is of course worse for elderly people with such conditions. The key would be changing the pattern from an exponential growth in the number of cases to an exponential decay, which we currently plan on doing through vaccination. That would in time relieve the stress on the health care system. It would not totally protect those who refuse the vaccine and protections, but what can you do”

2. The planners seemed to think they could keep the economy healthy without bringing the number of cases well down first. As is, they did neither. It may only be a terrible and lethal mistake, but the lying was done so willfully that it is hard to forgive. It was done through minimizing the importance of the precautions which you could label as propaganda. It was sort of centrally planned, but the effort to fight the virus ended up in the hand of the states and of regional alliances of states. That will soon change.

3. Systematic racism includes bad cops murdering people and the best jobs being reserved for white people. There is more to it than that, but those are biggies. It is possible to define it.

4. I listed already a bunch of factors effecting climate. The big one is the increase in warmth due to human production of greenhouse gasses. Are you a professional in the field? Silly question I guess. You seem to be a political internet warrior far more invested in the politics of denying problems than the science of understanding them. Anyone can declare a baseless opinion on the net, but they can’t make it true.

It was a long time since I last checked the solar cycles. Once upon a time I bumped into a guy who thought a hot sun was the dominant factor, and we were heading into a new minimum. That turns out to be wrong. Cycle 24 was a little cool, but the temperatures kept going up. Cycle 25 is predicted to be pretty much like 24. I am not a pro, but I do keep up with the research.

5: We agree that something ought to be done, but disagree on who was responsible for the obstruction.

Points one through four put you distinctly in the ignore the problem and the science red camp. I don’t see brainwashing as being involved. Deliberate brainwashing by the government seems limited to military boot camps, where introducing recruits as quickly as possible to the military subculture is accepted. The worthy elements of red thought include small government, reduced taxes, and the habit of a low density population to be independent rather the cooperative and specialized. The racism and elitism is not so worthy.

So long as you ignore the facts and the science, I agree that further dialogue would be futile. But then again, attempting to change worldviews is essentially futile. Japan suffered roughly 3,000,000 deaths in World War II before they were willing to change their culture. They had a population of around 73 million, close enough to the count of people who voted for Trump recently. COVID has not reached that sort of death count yet. It is not likely to with the vaccines imminent. The desire to cling to existing culture is very strong. We will just have to see if the culture of ignoring precautions can be touched by the death count due to the holiday season on top of an already surge with the health care system already on national overload. I keep waiting for people to learn, but they don’t seem to.
I'll just suffer this a bit longer. Ok, last time trying.

1. Does influenza kill healthy people? The CDC said so. You never met one. Nor did you hear about it. If you don't understand that this proves the whole thing is propaganda, again, you aren't paying attention and want to believe in made up crises. And no, healthy people don't die from the flu or the wuhan flu.

2. Central planning hurt far more humans. Why? This flu isn't lethal and you crushed the economy and people's livelihoods. Sheesh, even your favorite Dem governors sent the flu directly into nursing homes to cause half of all the "deaths from covid".

3. You say nothing meaningful nor give an example. I'm sure Africans created great civilizations in your mind too.

4. CO2 isn't a pollutant and humans do not cause any manner of "warming". I proved that already, you didn't read and can't counter it so you didn't bring it up.

In case you didn't know, but have an open mind, "cases" of Covid mean zero. You can't even tell me how someone gets a positive PCR test and why that might not be real, etc. You have no business opining on any of these measures since you don't demonstrate understanding of them even on a cursory level. Notice that I am not saying that you can't understand, are incapable, or need to be a scientist or doctor. You do need to grasp the frailties of the concepts or the assertions, however. As such, you are a pawn looking for confirmation of lefty ideas, which is fine, but you should know that you are opining on topics you don't really know much about at all.

Bob Butler
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
1. Does influenza kill healthy people? The CDC said so. You never met one. Nor did you hear about it. If you don't understand that this proves the whole thing is propaganda, again, you aren't paying attention and want to believe in made up crises. And no, healthy people don't die from the flu or the wuhan flu.
1: One self described ‘Idealist” I have debated once tried to promote Bishop Berkeley’s supposition that one cannot know things one has not observed. I countered with Newton’s Principia, which includes the basic scientific theory. This sounds suspiciously like a reprise. You cannot learn from the observations of other people? A philosophy professor also into Berkeley’s fantasy tried to convince me as an electronics major that electrons didn’t exist. No one has directly observed an electron. I was tempted to suggest he insert keys in a power outlet and touch both. I was doing a paper on semiconductor lasers at the time. If an electron drops to a lower energy level it emits a photon of the precise energy level of the change. The professor had just not examined the evidence. It was pointless to discuss it.

I was wondering how you remained so ignorant.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
2. Central planning hurt far more humans. Why? This flu isn't lethal and you crushed the economy and people's livelihoods. Sheesh, even your favorite Dem governors sent the flu directly into nursing homes to cause half of all the "deaths from covid".
2: This flu is lethal. Try to visit your local hospital emergency room if you insist only personal observations are valid.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
3. You say nothing meaningful nor give an example. I'm sure Africans created great civilizations in your mind too.
3: Define meaningful? That which you agree with? I suppose that because a bad cop hasn’t shot at you it never happens?

I did discover a PBS project called “Africa’s Great Civilizations.” If you compare them against China or Rome they don’t match the scale, but so do few other civilizations. But that hasn’t been my area of interest.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
4. CO2 isn't a pollutant and humans do not cause any manner of "warming". I proved that already, you didn't read and can't counter it so you didn't bring it up.
4: I did bring it up. I listed a bunch of things that can effect climate. You ignored it as it was related to a problem and your mind set is fixated on problems not existing. You seem to ignore or reject any data that supports problems existing.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
n case you didn't know, but have an open mind, "cases" of Covid mean zero. You can't even tell me how someone gets a positive PCR test and why that might not be real, etc. You have no business opining on any of these measures since you don't demonstrate understanding of them even on a cursory level. Notice that I am not saying that you can't understand, are incapable, or need to be a scientist or doctor. You do need to grasp the frailties of the concepts or the assertions, however. As such, you are a pawn looking for confirmation of lefty ideas, which is fine, but you should know that you are opining on topics you don't really know much about at all.
Again, the US has four percent of the population and twenty five percent of the cases. You can’t tell me that the US has done well in containing the virus. Your pretending the cases don’t exist somehow doesn’t impress me.

Higgenbotham
Posts: 5791
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Societal collapse

Post by Higgenbotham »

Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:18 am
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
1. Does influenza kill healthy people? The CDC said so. You never met one. Nor did you hear about it. If you don't understand that this proves the whole thing is propaganda, again, you aren't paying attention and want to believe in made up crises. And no, healthy people don't die from the flu or the wuhan flu.
1: One self described ‘Idealist” I have debated once tried to promote Bishop Berkeley’s supposition that one cannot know things one has not observed. I countered with Newton’s Principia, which includes the basic scientific theory. This sounds suspiciously like a reprise. You cannot learn from the observations of other people? A philosophy professor also into Berkeley’s fantasy tried to convince me as an electronics major that electrons didn’t exist. No one has directly observed an electron. I was tempted to suggest he insert keys in a power outlet and touch both. I was doing a paper on semiconductor lasers at the time. If an electron drops to a lower energy level it emits a photon of the precise energy level of the change. The professor had just not examined the evidence. It was pointless to discuss it.

I was wondering how you remained so ignorant.
I don't know the precise levels, but let's say, as an example, that Vitamin D levels were measured in the US population and the blood levels were found to average 20 (I can't remember the units) with a "normal" range of 15-32, where 2.5% of the population exceeds 32 and 2.5% is below 15 (and I don't know how "normal" is defined in terms of percentages that fall outside this type of a range). It's my understanding that this is how "normal" blood levels of various parameters are defined in a population - whether the individual's levels conform to some average of the levels in the population. Further, it's arbitrarily defined that "normal" equates to "healthy", as I believe is the actual practice in the US today. But in a hunter-gatherer population, Vitamin D levels are typically in the range of 40-50. I would argue that healthy Vitamin D levels for Americans would be closer to the range of 40-50 than the range of 15-32 of most sunlight deprived Americans.

Then there's the question of what is able to be diagnosed using standard methods. It's said that the processes for many diseases of Western civilization begin long before they are able to be clinically diagnosed using standard methods. So, for example, heart disease that appears decades later begins in childhood (I read that once and the culprit if I remember correctly is fast food) and the processes that lead to cancer begin decades before cancer appears.

I'm quite sure that the CDC would define an American whose blood levels are in the normal range by American standards and who is in the early stages of cancer, heart disease, or something else as being healthy. I would argue that they are not.

It would be my best guess that the majority of the "healthy" individuals who died of covid-19 were not truly healthy. As an example, I read about a robust man in his 40s (he looked like a bodybuilder) who nearly died of the virus. He was touted by the media as being healthy. Buried somewhere in all the information was the fact that he owned an auto body shop. And my thought was how much particulate did he get into his lungs from spraying paint, not to mention all the VOC in his blood? Then there's the question of whether he had a history of steroid use for his bodybuilding - judging from his appearance, very likely.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

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tim
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:33 am

Re: Societal collapse

Post by tim »

What I don't understand about the fear of global warming: It is a fact that the Earth has gone through periods of Ice Ages. This is a natural cycle that has been happening long before any influence of man. Wouldn't the real fear be a (natural) climate change where most of the Earth is covered in ice? How would any humans survive?

If anything, man made global warming is a positive thing pushing the next Ice Age farther back.
"Nothing happens to anybody, that he is not fitted by Nature to bear" - Marcus Aurelius

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