Abortion

[Navigator]

What? You didn’t notice how Republican speakers inevitably retired or resigned?

The theory of democracy is a willingness to pay for what most of the people want. If you are unhappy with democracy, what can I say? Those who are less in want want less. Those who are less in need need less. That does not mean most people do not want or need some help. What are governments for?

Name a bankrupted state? Nation? Liar?

The ghetto mindset is real. Some have been unable to be hired into the American Dream thus distrust and seek alternatives to the American Dream. They may think such things as to get ahead you have to be a pusher, a sports star, a mother good at manipulating welfare, or a criminal. Yes, you have to fight that way of life not give up on the fight.

Yes, the religious fanatics, bigots and rich are attempting to impose their culture on others not of that culture. No matter how unpleasant you might find it to become aware of that fact, it remains true. If you doubt me, try to tell a woman you are not imposing on her. Good luck with that.

Agreed, some aspects of ‘morality’ are not being contested by either party. This doesn’t imply other areas aren’t. One former president (Carter) tries and is close to succeeding in eliminating guinea worms. Trump seems to prefer criminal activity. That neither is trying particularly hard to prevent mutual consenting sex has nothing to do with it. It would be kind of futile for either Carter or Trump to try it. That is one potent drive in humans.

A fetus is a piece of meat. Again, you have not been able to argue otherwise. I doubt you can, yet it is the major way in we differ. Define one property a fetus has which meat animals don’t. If you can’t find such a property, you are trying to impose by government force a religious doctrine. You can’t do that.

Ironic, considering it is DeSantis and others who are crippling what schools teach and are promoting censorship of books and libraries. This is a problem in rural red areas. Democrats are not seeking to force evangelicals to have abortions or promoting bigotry against bigots. They seek freedom, free speech and democracy, not imposing or creating trouble for others. This is definitely a lie.

Again, who has gone bankrupt? Proclaiming lies in unrelated areas will not resolve the abortion question. I will suggest Bidenomics is better than anything the Republicans have been pushing lately, and leave it at that.

You need not blabber lies about the conservative progressive divide and ruin what little credibility you have. Stick with one issue at a time. I feel like I have had to address every issue under the sun in this note. Really work on the property a fetus has that a meat animal doesn’t. All these scattered distractions on other issues count for nothing as you can’t do that. Trying to solve each issue in one paragraph really isn’t adequate. A thread is more like it.

Once again, I will go through the points one by one

1 - Sure, Republican Speakers (Boehner and Ryan) resigned. Should they have stayed on forever like Pelosi or Feinstein? They did their part and moved on. I wish many other politicians would do so. Too many stay on just to maintain their hold on power.

2 - Where on earth does it say the theory of Democracy is the willingness to pay for what others want? I get it that our country has decided to do that, and I pay my taxes, but I am not happy with what they are used for. Governments are to do what it says in our constitution:
Establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
Note that nowhere here does it say transfer wealth from one group to another. This didn't start happening until the 1930s.

Now, before anyone thinks I don't care about the poor or the needy, I do. I donate more than 10% of my income to charity. I also volunteer and help tutor kids that need it.

We do have an obligation to help the widow and orphan. But paying people to sit around and do nothing is, has always been, and always will be, a recipe for disaster.

Government programs to help the needy need to be based on governmental income. NOT DEBT. Such limitations would ensure the programs do not get out of control. It is now too late to do anything about this.

3 - Name a bankrupted state or nation. Technically, the USA is bankrupt. The national debt, which btw, continues its parabolic increase, can never be repaid at this point. And it will just get worse. Eventually the current financial system will collapse, and the current dollar will be worthless. The misery that this will inflict on EVERYONE will be the end result of government programs gone amuck.

Many cities and states are also technically bankrupt. Meaning they have debts that they can never repay. For states, Illinois is probably in the worst shape. Must major municipalities are in the same situation (ala NYC).

At the national level the problem is with the social programs. At the state and local level, it is a combination of social programs and government employee unions, primarily the Police, Fire, and Teachers unions.

4 - Ghetto mindset and being hired. Currently the nation faces a labor shortage. There should be no problem with getting a job (so long as you have basic education and are willing to work). The problem is that current government programs discourage this ("I can make more sitting at home"), or, labor unions have made it so that low level jobs are unavailable (for example, infrastructure repair and basic sanitation jobs cannot be done at low levels of pay because the unions actively prevent this).

5 - Imposition of culture. Saying Murder and Theft should be illegal is the imposition of morality necessary for Society to exist. I guess in your viewpoint, everyone should just be able to do anything that they want. Unfortunately, this is Anarchy.

And yes, abortion is murder - the killing of a human being. Just because someone wants to do this does not make it OK.

As for reigning in sexual urges, this is one of the tests in life for all. Not doing so will result in mortal unhappiness, and, in my belief system, eternal consequences as well. But all have their agency, and no one is forced to be moral. All can, and do, what they chose to do, whether it is illegal or not.

6 - A fetus is meat. I guess it is for you. I would challenge you to eat one if that is what you believe. I would be curious to hear how you felt about doing that afterwards. In my case, I view it as a human, because, as I have stated before, it will develop into a fully functional human being if cared for. BTW, what is the difference to you between a baby human and a calf? The human baby has even less abilities and requires even more care than the calf. So are babies also edible in your view?

7 - Schoolbooks are being censored, so Republicans are against free speech, but Democrats are all for free speech. I would say that certain things are inappropriate for children. And I think those are the books that DeSantis and others want removed from schools. I do think it is wildly inappropriate to discuss sexuality with 6 and 7 year olds. Unfortunately, bigotry is allowable under free speech. As are many other distasteful and hurtful opinions. The extreme left attempting to shut down any free speech that IT views as hurtful, and this has ended up being a direct assault against voicing ANY opinion they don't like ("it has triggered me and hurts my feelings").

8- Bidenomics. I don't even know what it is. Please enlighten us. The current administration seems to be happy to just hand out ever more money to ever more people. He is personally "standing with the Auto Unions" while destroying their jobs through Green Initiatives that will backfire in the end (the construction of electric cars will lead to even worse pollution than we have now). I will say that Republicans long ago left the realm of fiscal responsibility themselves. Government debt does matter, and they gave up fighting against it decades ago.

I am sorry that you are losing your ability to debate on this forum and that you have given in to personal attacks. I do think that you have been attacked personally by many on this forum. And that should not be so. I am happy to debate with you, its just that your responses have required the above as you jump around between issues. My initial points were solely on abortion. As for the fetus issue, see #6 above.

[Bob Butler]

Once again, I will go through the points one by one...

Not again…

1: You missed Gingrich, retiring after failure.

2: The Constitution. In short, if the majority of representatives vote to spend money, they spend money. I might be willing to talk about computer networked democracy, rather than representative democracy, but we are currently under the representative version.

3: Jdcpapa a page back provided a link to quite a number of bankrupt cities, states and nations. They don’t stay that way. If people live in an area, they need a government. Thus, his examples are very temporary, lasting a few years generally. (Well, Russia after WW I stuck for a while, but governments resumed promptly.) You do get one culture taking over other cultures, imposing their will an others, ruling by force. You do get incompetent governments making bad choices. You do get internal disagreements within a nation, with the multiple factions messing things up. There seem to be fewer governments being total replacements or dissolution than businesses, but for these and other reasons it does happen. Briefly. Generally there are rescue organizations that will bail a failed government out if you pledge to follow decent practices.

There are also places where criminal, aggressive or religious forces invoke processes which the culture opposes, such as Russia around WW I, Yugoslavia after WW II, the drug cartels of South and Central America, the Ba'ath in the Middle East, Iran, the Taliban, the royalty of Saudi Arabia or the Republicans of the current United States. It takes time, but coercing other cultures does catch up with you.

4: You have not addressed the Ghetto Mindset problem, but have instead projected a labor union problem. Of late, corporations have made huge profits off the perhaps overdone Covid problem, and the labor unions are trying to get a reasonable share of it going to the common man. I generally approve. If you want to chase this tangent I will, but it probably belongs in another thread.

5: The inability to kill sentients without war or due process has nothing to do with the abortion process.

6: A fetus is meat, period. There is a story of a time with two popes, and the king of France needed troops. France recognized one of the two popes, who in a quid pro quo made abortion a big deal sin. This resulted in more French killers. This has lived on in echos ever since, with superstitious people living before science imagining the existence of undetectable but supposedly important ‘souls’. One important Catholic academic, a so called saint, proposed a male fetus got a soul sooner than a female. Why should sensible people with modern science based understandings of the world listen to such nonsense?

Again, identify a property that a fetus has which meat animals don’t. You can’t. All you can count on is medieval superstition and keep repeating it, over and over and over.

7: Yes, certain books and certain information are held by our culture to be kept from pre adolescent children. The schools and libraries have been doing this all along. What DeSantis and others are doing is banning teaching of black and other minority history, and mandating a favorable telling of their desired fictional history. (Slaves benefited from being enslaved...) They are minimizing awareness of the historical abuse heaped upon other cultures, notably black. They are using the power of government to advocate a cultural position.

8: There is more to Bidenomics than I can cover in one paragraph, or want to in the abortion thread. I just note that many Republican congressmen have approved of the abundant jobs and fixed infrastructure brought to their states, in spite of voting against the Bidenomics bills that did it.

I am kind of sorry that instead of defining any key property of a fetus, you are diverting to a whole bunch of other issues. Most are worthy. Most belong on other threads and should be debated. I am considering moving most of the other issues to my own thread and responding here only to abortion related questions. (#6)

[Higgenbotham]

3: Jdcpapa a page back provided a link to quite a number of bankrupt cities, states and nations. They don’t stay that way. If people live in an area, they need a government. Thus, his examples are very temporary, lasting a few years generally. (Well, Russia after WW I stuck for a while, but governments resumed promptly.)

Decades ago, I read that Spain went bankrupt 3 times in the 1600s. I wondered how this was possible. It would seem that once a nation is bankrupt, it is bankrupt. There would be no need for repetition.

The Trump Organization is a reasonable microcosm of the situation that has existed during our lifetimes.

** 14-Jan-2020 World View: Bubble

So Bannon would certainly have told Trump about the danger of a stock
market bubble and global financial crisis.

But that doesn't mean that Trump believes it. Trump may well believe,
like all the mainstream idiots, that there's a bubble going on, and
even if there is a bubble, and even if the bubble bursts, then it
won't be any worse than the bubbles that burst in 2000 and 2007.
That's just as good as not believing there's a bubble.

I would say you're almost certainly right in that assessment.

Say, like Trump, you've been in the real estate business, and you recognize it's a bubble and has been for along time. It's logical to say, well, it's been a bubble for a long time and the way to address it has been to buy the dip and then wait for some excesses, trim holdings, wait for the next dip, etc. The practical way to be successful in navigating the bubble has been to take on debt and assume the general trajectory is onward and upward to bigger and bigger bubbles with speed bumps along the road. People who have the constitution to operate in that manner are the only ones who have amassed fortunes since the 1987 crash (Hendricks Holdings, for example) and among that class of people a certain groupthink has developed and a level of genius is inappropriately attributed to that kind of thinking (another more widely known example, the cult of Warren Buffet which would never have existed absent the bubble environment since 1987).

More US government debt and Federal Reserve money printing with associated bailouts is what got everyone, including Trump and the various smaller government entities cited in Jdcpapa's link, over the speed bumps. That process will terminate when the US and the Federal Reserve can't successfully do one more bailout. Normally (the South Sea Bubble and the Roaring 20s being good examples), it terminated with government recognizing that a limit had been reached and calling a halt to the bubble. Since limits haven't been recognized, nature will terminate this bubble with either hyperinflation or a derivatives blowup. After that, there will be anarchy.

It can end, as it did for Spain, with losing status as the leading power and another nation-state being available to more or less seamlessly step into that role. There's been a lot written about that process, and it seems an assumption has developed that it always ends that way. Many assume China is next in line. Those who believe that may want to reconsider. Joseph Tainter, an archaeologist who has studied the collapse of complex civilizations, considers another possibility:

Peer polities [i.e., groups of mutually competing states] tend to undergo long periods of upwardly spiraling competitive costs, and downward marginal returns. This is terminated finally by domination of one and acquisition of a new energy subsidy (as in Republican Rome and Warring States China), or by mutual collapse (as among the Mycenaeans and the Maya). Collapse, if and when it comes again, will this time be global. No longer can any individual nation collapse. World civilization will disintegrate as a whole. Competitors who evolve as peers collapse in like manner.

There have been complaints about aeden's posts being inscrutable. For those who want to consider yet other possibilities and wade through his posts, his comments about "racing to mud huts" and the reasons why that is happening are worth reading.

[Higgenbotham]

This young black woman has written an article telling people what she thinks white culture is based on her research into the data. Further, she even went so far as to show exactly what imposing "white culture" on black people meant to her.

You cannot describe fully an entire culture in one paragraph. I am not claiming she is lying. Nor does she mention bigotry, abortion or the rich. She just didn't say everything that could be said, certainly not in response to this ongoing discussion.

The question is how effectively a surrogate can speak for the unique experiences of another group of people. If one wants to appoint oneself as a surrogate to speak for the unique experiences of black people in America, one should consider his qualifications. If you are not a black person who has lived in America for your entire life, it is very difficult in my opinion to make an accurate assessment of what it means to impose "white culture" on that group of people. It would be best to leave it to black Americans to describe for themselves what it means to them or to find and quote their experiences.

[Bob Butler]

I think Spain is an odd case rather than your typical example. When they were importing lots of gold from the New World, their monetary situation was unusual. It is easy to assume that with all that wealth coming in, they wouldn’t go bankrupt, but they managed. An incompetent government can seemingly overcome any source of wealth?

I would assume size and resources has something to do with dominance. The US and Russia have huge continents to work with, and China nearly matches them. China also had the advantage of a cheap work force. How can a smaller country come to dominate them? One answer is with defensive alliances. Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, India and Australia could not take on China individually, but working together and with the United States?

Alas, China and Russia have had to deal with autocratic governments, with corruption and leaders who answer to no one and surround themselves with yes men. You end up in less than ideal circumstances.

There is a problem that this forum has a general lack of black contributors. Somebody has to point out how DeSantis and others are editing history. If he was not trying to press how beneficial it is to be a slave I wouldn’t have to question his experience with slavery?

[Higgenbotham]

It would be best to leave it to black Americans to describe for themselves what it means to them or to find and quote their experiences.

This was speaking for myself. I haven't found myself able to understand many viewpoints of black Americans and therefore don't try to say what those are in most cases. However, I wasn't surprised to see the support for Trump from blacks after "the system" came down on him. A more accurate way to state the above would have been, "It works best for me to leave it to black Americans to describe for themselves what it means to them or to find and quote their experiences."

As an example of the above, since abortion is the topic, my guess is that blacks resent Planned Parenthood coming into their communities and encouraging abortions. In other words, the aspect of "white culture" being imposed would be thought to be the "white culture" that says abortion is OK and should be made readily available to everyone. I don't want to take the time to do a deep dive into what those attitudes really are, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that I am wrong.

[spottybrowncow]

Again, identify a property that a fetus has which meat animals don’t. You can’t.

A fetus, if left alone to follow its natural course, will quite likely become a fully-formed human being. This is not true of "meat animals" (whatever that is). While some would (unconvincingly) argue that this is meaningless, many others consider it to be a very important distinction.

[Bob Butler]

Again, identify a property that a fetus has which meat animals don’t. You can’t.

A fetus, if left alone to follow its natural course, will quite likely become a fully-formed human being. This is not true of "meat animals" (whatever that is). While some would (unconvincingly) argue that this is meaningless, many others consider it to be a very important distinction.

The key point, which I have been trying to force Navigator to say, is that there is a difference between what something is and what something might become someday. As is, one is trying to enslave women with a modern practical scientific worldview to obey a medieval superstition. It isn't going to happen.

Hmm. Assume a spotty brown cow is one meat animal.

[Bob Butler]

It would be best to leave it to black Americans to describe for themselves what it means to them or to find and quote their experiences.

This was speaking for myself. I haven't found myself able to understand many viewpoints of black Americans and therefore don't try to say what those are in most cases. However, I wasn't surprised to see the support for Trump from blacks after "the system" came down on him. A more accurate way to state the above would have been, "It works best for me to leave it to black Americans to describe for themselves what it means to them or to find and quote their experiences."

As an example of the above, since abortion is the topic, my guess is that blacks resent Planned Parenthood coming into their communities and encouraging abortions. In other words, the aspect of "white culture" being imposed would be thought to be the "white culture" that says abortion is OK and should be made readily available to everyone. I don't want to take the time to do a deep dive into what those attitudes really are, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that I am wrong.

Make any sort of study of US history and you can find out how minorities are treated. The established majority deprived blacks of freedom, Native Americans of land, Asians of women, women of health care, Irish of jobs, etc…. Knowing how I would feel if some group tried to deprive me of these things and more, it is easy to project how they feel. One would strive not to deprive anyone of anything, not to force your way on others.

Each individual is different. One person might want a child, another might not. Forcing things either way would be problematic. Thus, inciting someone who doesn’t feel something, compelling them do something or taking away things you have are to be avoided. What is important to one might not be a big deal to another. Thus Planned Parenthood might be equally ready to provide contraceptives and fertility treatments. One provides what the individual wants, not what you want. Whether you satisfy an individual desire or the result of their culture, you should be seeking to help them out rather than compelling people to be like you.

[Navigator]

I am kind of sorry that instead of defining any key property of a fetus, you are diverting to a whole bunch of other issues. Most are worthy. Most belong on other threads and should be debated. I am considering moving most of the other issues to my own thread and responding here only to abortion related questions. (#6)

Bob (and other interested),

What we have in the past couple of days of posts is a concrete example of what happens when you engage with others.

My post on 4 Oct, copying a post I made in 2011.

To get back at the core topic, abortion, I am reposting what I wrote about it before:

As we get further and further from Christ's teachings as a society, things get worse and worse.

I also view Abortion (save in the cases of rape and incest) as murder.

The leftists say "a woman gets to chose what to do with her body". In a way I agree. But the choice is made when you decide to have sex. Sex, the power of procreation, is something that God wants us to be very careful about. It is meant for the creation of families, and, by commandment, is meant to be only between a man and wife.

Sex is not just some recreational activity. Immorality leads to all kinds of pain, hardship and difficulties. The worst of which is probably the damage it does to the family, the bedrock of any society/civilization itself.

I this post, I dealt with abortion and my views on it based on religion.

This is one, maybe two topics (if you want to separate the religion out, but then my views on abortion are based on my religious views; obviously).

Instead of dealing with these two issues, you brought up all the others that I have responded to, starting with this post from you:

This still leaves it as a European white supremicist urge to impose one's own culture on those who do not share it. It is much like the bigot's desire to protect traditional prejudices or the rich folk's desire to keep undue influence on government. Freedom and independence imply not imposing one's way on others. Yes, the Evangelicals, Catholics and Jews share a European religious doctrine, but America is not supposed to impose religious doctrines on those who do not share it. Does the government punish women for not covering their hair, or anyone for eating meat on Friday? I think not. I do not care how profoundly you believe in your own doctrine or prejudice, do not try to impose it on others.

Again, can you identify a scientifically measurable property that a fetus has which animals we raise for meat does not? Your definition of sentient is a religious doctrine. You cannot declare an official religion then enforce it's doctrine.

You in fact started talking about not only abortion and possibly its religions implications, but the following:
1 – Accusations of Christianity being racist
2 – Accusations of the Rich desiring undue governmental influence
3 – Accusations of people imposing their views on others.
4 – Accusations that restricting or limiting abortion is to restrict freedom and independence.

Since you brought all of these up, each required a response.

Then, in your next response, you brought up, even more points as you further muddied the water, losing almost all focus on any kind of debate:

In MSNBC’s The Last Word tonight, Lawrence O’Donnell made a point that the Republicans do not know how to nominate a competent speaker that knows how to do the job. For the longest time, the Democrats held Congress and were the speakers. In recent times the Republicans have had the occasional chance, and their people were universally disasters. They tended to resign or retire. True, this is the first time they have had to vote out their own guy, but they simply do not know how to do the job.

From my point of view, a lot of it is just having a different job. The Democrats try to help the people. The Republicans try to force their culture on others. Thus they are an alliance of bigots, religious fanatics and the rich. They made it illegal to follow one’s own morality, and they censor attempts to spread conflicting cultures. The whole point is to impose their own way of thought on others. Certain aspects of white culture are imposed by force of government on those belonging to other cultures.

I am not sure if the bigots, religious fanatics or rich are the worst.

Again, define a property that can be scientifically, repeatedly detected in a fetus, but not in your typical animal grown for meat. Your objection is to a religious doctrine. A religious doctrine. You have no right to impose it on those that do not share it.

Not that you are apt to succeed. Note in your post you quote religions, not cultures. The attempts by conservatives to dictate religious beliefs in conflict with women has resulted in the women winning the vote in the US every single time since Roe was overturned. Come 2024, if conservatives continue to attempt to impose their culture on the women of America, the Democrats are apt to win Congress. There is no other way to restore control of their own bodies. And then the conservative collapse will be on. A right to reproductive health care. Voting rights. An end to gerrymandering. Common sense gun control. Fighting censorship by underling the First Amendment. Etc... You let in a decisive progressive Congress, and they won’t stop at one issue.

I really just ought to shut my mouth and let you cut your own throats. Ah, well. You can’t say you weren’t warned.

Rather than supply counter arguments you brought up the following ADDITIONAL POINTS:

1 – Accusing all Republican Speakers of the House of having been disasters.
2 – Stating that Democrats are just trying to help others
3 – Accusing Republicans of being just an alliance of the rich, fanatics, and bigots.
4 – Stating that a fetus is meat, ala hamburger
5 – 2024 Election Predictions
6 – Voting rights
7 – Gerrymandering
8 – Gun Control
9 – Censorship

I wanted to stay on my topic of Abortion in the debate, but now had to deal with all of these additional things you brought up.

Since Abortion is the topic of debate on this thread, I answered about body control in my ORIGINAL post, and reiterated this point. I also explained why a fetus is not meat.

4 - A fetus is not a piece of meat. It will become a human being unless steps are taken to kill it. The "option" for men and women is to not engage in unprotected sex unless they want a chance at creating a human being. This is where choice occurs. Once you have created a human being, you are obligated to take care of it. By your argument, parents could just starve an infant and be ok, as forcing them to care for it is "imposing morality".

Your response to this was to do the debating equivalent of “stomping your feet” while holding your hands over your ears.

You then bring up the additional issue of:

1 – Censorship in Schools.

A fetus is a piece of meat. Again, you have not been able to argue otherwise. I doubt you can, yet it is the major way in we differ. Define one property a fetus has which meat animals don’t. If you can’t find such a property, you are trying to impose by government force a religious doctrine. You can’t do that.

Ironic, considering it is DeSantis and others who are crippling what schools teach and are promoting censorship of books and libraries. This is a problem in rural red areas. Democrats are not seeking to force evangelicals to have abortions or promoting bigotry against bigots. They seek freedom, free speech and democracy, not imposing or creating trouble for others. This is definitely a lie.

You then end your statements by calling me a liar, blaming me for bringing up additional issues.

You need not blabber lies about the conservative progressive divide and ruin what little credibility you have. Stick with one issue at a time. I feel like I have had to address every issue under the sun in this note. Really work on the property a fetus has that a meat animal doesn’t. All these scattered distractions on other issues count for nothing as you can’t do that. Trying to solve each issue in one paragraph really isn’t adequate. A thread is more like it.

I am going to this effort to show logically, to anyone who uses logic, that you in fact inserted all these additional topics (at least 14 by my count) into the argument yourself, and then blame me for going off topic! See proof shown above.

As for the original debate points:

I also provided you with the argument that a fetus is a human being. Multiple times. Also see above.

I also provided you with the arguments regarding morality and its necessity for society. (as in Murder cannot be allowed/condoned). I haven’t seen any counter arguments on that.

The point is that you cannot stay on topic, you cannot engage in debate, and just get mad when your points are logically disproven.
I just am having fun pointing out.