Abortion

[Bob Butler]

Navigator...

Our major difference is that I believe sentients should not be killed, while you believe something which might eventually develop into something sentient should not be killed. There is no way to resolve this morally. You can repeat your medieval superstition again, but repetition won't do it.

The groups with strong opinions are those with practical, scientific, modern worldviews, and those that follow medieval superstitions. Since Roe was overturned, the former seem to have the advantage.

Practically, if one party gets clean control of Congress and the White House, it will get resolved. To me, this seems likely in 2025, but it seems early to celebrate.

The basics of freedom is that no one tries to impose on another.

On your various digresson issues, I have answered as much or more than seems prudent here, but am willing to further pursue them in their proper threads.

[spottybrowncow]

Navigator,

I’ve dealt with this in the past, though your patience greatly outpaces mine.
My advice - cast not your pearls before swine.

[Higgenbotham]

It would be best to leave it to black Americans to describe for themselves what it means to them or to find and quote their experiences.

This was speaking for myself. I haven't found myself able to understand many viewpoints of black Americans and therefore don't try to say what those are in most cases. However, I wasn't surprised to see the support for Trump from blacks after "the system" came down on him. A more accurate way to state the above would have been, "It works best for me to leave it to black Americans to describe for themselves what it means to them or to find and quote their experiences."

As an example of the above, since abortion is the topic, my guess is that blacks resent Planned Parenthood coming into their communities and encouraging abortions. In other words, the aspect of "white culture" being imposed would be thought to be the "white culture" that says abortion is OK and should be made readily available to everyone. I don't want to take the time to do a deep dive into what those attitudes really are, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that I am wrong.

Make any sort of study of US history and you can find out how minorities are treated. The established majority deprived blacks of freedom, Native Americans of land, Asians of women, women of health care, Irish of jobs, etc…. Knowing how I would feel if some group tried to deprive me of these things and more, it is easy to project how they feel. One would strive not to deprive anyone of anything, not to force your way on others.

Each individual is different. One person might want a child, another might not. Forcing things either way would be problematic. Thus, inciting someone who doesn’t feel something, compelling them do something or taking away things you have are to be avoided. What is important to one might not be a big deal to another. Thus Planned Parenthood might be equally ready to provide contraceptives and fertility treatments. One provides what the individual wants, not what you want. Whether you satisfy an individual desire or the result of their culture, you should be seeking to help them out rather than compelling people to be like you.

Before you continue pissing and moaning about how bad whites are, I would like to propose a 6 month assignment for you.

There are parts of Africa that the State Department considers no-go zones for Americans. For example, in Nigeria, the State Department will not provide support to any American who goes outside of Lagos or the capital city of Abuja. If the American does that, they are on their own. I have gone outside those areas myself, basically taking my life into my own hands.

I would propose that you do the same. If you agree, I will finance the trip. You will get on a Delta flight from Atlanta to Lagos. It will be a nice flight. On the flight, you will meet a Delta crew that will almost certainly be all black. Some will likely be African. They will tell you that when they land in Lagos, Delta will not allow them to go outside of the company's compound in Lagos for safety reasons.

Once you get into the Lagos airport, you will immediately find you are in third world conditions. The situation will be extremely chaotic right from the get-go. You will be accosted by blacks wanting to "help you" for a price. You will pay the price.

Once you get outside of Lagos, you may be lucky enough to meet a few fellow Americans, but it's not likely. I never did. At that point, even finding a white European will make you feel like you are meeting a fellow American. Here is what they will tell you. For example, if they work for Chevron in the Nigerian Delta, they will tell you that Chevron will not even allow them to take ANY public transportation within the country. All of Chevron's employees are air lifted out of Chevron's facilities by helicopter for safety reasons. If the European you happen to meet works in the Shell compound, some companies who also house employees in the compound will allow them outside for a maximum of 4 hours.

In other words, there is no opportunity for the few white people who are in the no-go zones in Nigeria to get "black culture" imposed on them because their employers fear that the process of doing so will leave them with no employees.

Before you launch into your typical liberal diatribe of why that is the case, your assignment will be to spend 6 months in Nigeria in these no-go zones learning for yourself why that is. Before you do that, you may want to consider hiring some form of security, as I did. I'll leave it up to you as to how to do that because I don't want to impose my racist "white culture" on you. Maybe you just think walking around with a BLM sign will be all you will need. I'd like to suggest that will not do the trick.

Then maybe when you get back from your 6 months of vacation, we can have a rational conversation about this.

[Bob Butler]

Before you continue pissing and moaning about how bad whites are, I would like to propose a 6 month assignment for you.

In his Civil Disobedience essay, Thoreau suggested one has no duty to solve every problem in the world, but one does have a duty to not be part of any problem. Yes, there are areas with far from ideal cultures in the world. I cannot hope to poof correct everything. One does have a duty, however, not be part of a given problem.

[Higgenbotham]

Before you continue pissing and moaning about how bad whites are, I would like to propose a 6 month assignment for you.

In his Civil Disobedience essay, Thoreau suggested one has no duty to solve every problem in the world, but one does have a duty to not be part of any problem. Yes, there are areas with far from ideal cultures in the world. I cannot hope to poof correct everything. One does have a duty, however, not be part of a given problem.

If you were to choose to spend some time in the extreme situation of being essentially the only White American in an all Black African culture, it will be life changing experience. I would suggest it, particularly to any young White American who wants a starting point for understanding race and culture.

I would never suggest that a woman get an abortion. But, similarly, when a woman has an abortion, it is a life changing experience, no pun intended. My first real education about abortion was to read what women who had abortions had to say about their decision to have one many decades after doing so. The accounts were truly heart rending. Rather than have technical discussions about abortion, I would suggest, similar to my suggestion about experiencing what race and culture truly are, for young people particularly to start there.

[Guest]

Before you continue pissing and moaning about how bad whites are, I would like to propose a 6 month assignment for you.

In his Civil Disobedience essay, Thoreau suggested one has no duty to solve every problem in the world, but one does have a duty to not be part of any problem. Yes, there are areas with far from ideal cultures in the world. I cannot hope to poof correct everything. One does have a duty, however, not be part of a given problem.

You're not only part of the problem you are stereotypical of a class of people who have brought the West to its knees.

[Bob Butler]

When a woman has an abortion, it is a life changing experience.

Whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or not it is a life changing experience. What bothers me is someone who doesn’t know anything about a woman’s situation or life experience is so sure of himself as to force his one size fits all no knowledge of the situation required decision on her. This exemplifies unspeakable callousness and cruelty. To me, this is a philosophical academic exercise. To her, it emphatically is not, which should not be forgotten.

You are ever so ready to impose difficult experience on others. Have you contemplated kindness?

My niece married a few years ago and decided not to have children. Recently... whoops. I can be pleased with an expanding family in spite of her slightly advanced age, but it should be her decision while consulting her physician and husband, not some politician's who neither knows or cares about her situation.

[Bob Butler]

You're not only part of the problem you are stereotypical of a class of people who have brought the West to its knees.

You forget I’m into Strauss and Howe. It is the conservative faction that believes problems should not be solved, that everything should remain the same, that collapses. The progressives get a new birth of freedom. The problems get solved. This is certainly true of the past American crises. I look around at all the people here anticipating collapse, seemingly unaware that all is collapsing on them.

[Higgenbotham]

When a woman has an abortion, it is a life changing experience.

Whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or not it is a life changing experience. What bothers me is someone who doesn’t know anything about a woman’s situation or life experience is so sure of himself as to force his one size fits all no knowledge of the situation required decision on her. This exemplifies unspeakable callousness and cruelty. To me, this is a philosophical academic exercise. To her, it emphatically is not, which should not be forgotten.

You are ever so ready to impose difficult experience on others. Have you contemplated kindness?

My niece married a few years ago and decided not to have children. Recently... whoops. I can be pleased with an expanding family in spite of her slightly advanced age, but it should be her decision while consulting her physician and husband, not some politician's who neither knows or cares about her situation.

This is silly floundering on a number of levels.

So I'll just hit one of them. I've got what appears to be something new for you. Guess what? Life is hard.

I married a few years ago at advanced age, much more advanced than your niece, and my first child was born when I was 58. Guess what? It was hard. It is hard. Life is supposed to be hard when we take responsibility and do our jobs.

If I have anything at all to complain about, it's on me. Like if I say my back is sore from carrying the kid or playing with the kid (it's not but it very well could be) then I should have taken on this responsibility when I was younger.

Good grief, Bob. People aren't supposed to have kids because it's too hard? Is that the candy ass liberal justification for abortion?

[Guest]

You're not only part of the problem you are stereotypical of a class of people who have brought the West to its knees.

You forget I’m into Strauss and Howe. It is the conservative faction that believes problems should not be solved, that everything should remain the same, that collapses. The progressives get a new birth of freedom. The problems get solved. This is certainly true of the past American crises. I look around at all the people here anticipating collapse, seemingly unaware that all is collapsing on them.

Ahem, that would be you.