Religion / Theology

Topics related to theology.
John
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Location: Cambridge, MA USA
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Re: Religion / Theology

Post by John »

** 20-Jan-2022 World View: Polygamy
Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:24 pm
> I have liked most Mormons I have encountered as people, but their
> religion is nonsense, the same playbook that Muhammad used to game
> other followers, get multiple wives (coincidence? I think not),
> and reinforce tribalism. Restoration religions are not only lying
> religions, they create made up stories that are clearly
> false.
There seems to be no limit to your hatred of and contempt for people
of other religions and races.

Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple
wives. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

I don't know the history of why Mormons practice polygamy, but I do
know the history of polygamy in Islam. I wrote about the subject in
my Iran book, which is also a history of Islam and the life of
Mohammed.

John Xenakis is author of: "World View: Iran's Struggle for Supremacy
-- Tehran's Obsession to Redraw the Map of the Middle East"
(Generational Theory Book Series, Book 1) Paperback: 153 pages, over
100 source references, $7.00
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... s.irbk.htm
https://www.amazon.com/World-View-Supre ... 732738610/

Here's some material from my book:
"Mohammed was monogamously married to his first wife
Khadijah (555-619) for 25 years, but when she died in 619,
Mohammed took on many more wives. Many Westerners criticize
Mohammed and Islam itself for polygamy, a criticism that's
particularly ironic these days when Western nations seem to permit
anyone to marry pretty much anyone else.

In fact, any Western criticism of marriage practices in any other
country is pretty laughable, given the high rates of divorce,
abuse and prostitution in Western countries. Westerners may
criticize marriage practices in Muslim countries, but many Muslims
in other countries view marital relations in the West to be a
complete mess.

In today's politically correct society, it's easy to forget that
polygamy serves a valuable social purpose at times in history when
war has killed off many men, leaving many women without partners.
In those situations, the only way for most women to receive
protection is through polygamous marriages. Furthermore, having a
number of unattached women walking around in this kind of society
would be very destabilizing, and could get women raped and men
killed. So in a society with fewer men than women, polygamy
protects women and stabilizes the society as a whole.

This is exactly the situation that obtained in the Arabian
peninsula for centuries, where war was a way of life. Many of
Mohammed's wives were widows, and there is evidence that many of
his marriages were specifically for the protection of the women.
At any rate, polygamy is a purely cultural thing, and it's really
not for Westerners to criticize in other cultures.

Not all Muslim majority countries permit polygamy, but those that
do regulate it. For example, in Malaysia in 1984, Islamic Family
Law listed five conditions to be followed by a Muslim wanting more
than one wife. The conditions, some of which were subsequently
modified, are:
  • He must have an appropriate financial situation;
  • he must ensure that all wives are kept under the same
    conditions;
  • existing wife or wives shall not be harmed,
  • a new marriage shall be "just and necessary",
  • a new marriage shall not, either directly or indirectly, lower
    the standard of living of the existing wife and other
    dependents.
So polygamy in other cultures can be perfectly reasonable in the
right circumstances.
I'm sure there are many Christian cultures where polygamy is
practiced, wherever there is a surplus of women such as, for example,
when a lot of the men have been killed off in war.

Polygamy can take many forms -- if not official marriage, then some
kind of common law marriage through mistresses and concubines. In
fact, polygamy is perfectly natural and an absolute necessity in a
society where there is a large enough surplus of women. An unattached
woman is subject to rape or slavery, and multiple unattached women can
destabilize a society. That's not "politically correct," but it's the
truth.

You really should learn to be more tolerant of others.

Navigator
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Navigator »

It is sad how people dismiss others as "nonsense" without understanding 0.1% of what the other person is talking about.

It is for this reason that I went into depth explaining my beliefs before declaring a denomination. I think most reading this thread were probably shocked when they found out that these are the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

For almost two centuries, people have not bothered to inform themselves of why this denomination practiced polygamy from about 1845 to 1890.

This is the time period when the Church of Jesus Christ had been so persecuted, its members burned out of their homes, their leaders assassinated, and the government refusing to protect them, that they crossed the great plains from Illinois to Utah, and established civilization there.

Most of the women involved in polygamy were widows or "old maids" that would have had zero protection or be provided for if left on their own. 1850s and 1860s Utah was about as "wild west" as it got. This was NOT 20th century America. These people were completely on their own in a literal wilderness.

In addition, the settlers in this area, almost completely isolated, needed as high a birth rate as possible.

Also, less than 10% of the males participated in polygamy. They had to have permission of the other women involved, and they had to be more than capable of providing for both the women and children.

The practice was ended when Utah and nearby settlements had substantial connections to the rest of the economy and nation.

In fact, the Book of Mormon prohibits polygamy except under specific circumstances such as those listed above:
This is from the Jacob Ch 2 in the book
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.


When the conditions requiring polygomy no longer existed, the practice ended. Those that practice it now have no connection with the Church of Jesus Christ, which will excommunicate (end the membership and association) of anyone who engages in this.

Navigator
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Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Anti-Christian Christians

Post by Navigator »

I have heard slanders and worse concerning the Church of Jesus Christ for years.

The root cause of it, as I have observed in my personal experience, is money.

Almost all denominations outside of the Church of Jesus Christ have a paid clergy of some kind. When people convert from the flocks of these clergy to the Church of Jesus Christ, the clergy lose the donations made by these people. It thus impacts the clergy's pocketbooks.

I saw this myself when I encountered protestant clergy who were telling their congregations that members of the Church of Jesus Christ were not Christian. They knew this to be a lie. Because THEY TOLD ME SO. They also told me it seemed to be effective, so they would keep repeating it. Even though it was utterly UNTRUE. This is hardly "Christian"

The Church of Jesus Christ, as the original Church organized by Christ himself, does not have a paid clergy. Uncompensated members do almost all the work. There are administrative staffs who work on producing educational materials and do similar work full time, but they are a very tiny tiny fraction of the membership (which is close to 20 Million worldwide).

The tithes that Church members donate goes to the construction and upkeep of churches and temples, to humanitarian work and to a fund for future crises, which are certain to arise.

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Tom Mazanec
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:13 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Tom Mazanec »

Navigator wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:20 pm
Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:24 pm

I have liked most Mormons I have encountered as people, but their religion is nonsense, the same playbook that Muhammad used to game other followers, get multiple wives (coincidence? I think not), and reinforce tribalism. Restoration religions are not only lying religions, they create made up stories that are clearly false.
Unless you are Roman Catholic, and even then, you have to believe that what was going on in the Dark Ages was OK, you believe that Christianity went off the rails within a hundred years or so of Christ.

Most people, unfortunately, do not look at the details of what is available through the Church of Jesus Christ, and instead rely on hearsay. I would urge others to look at what I wrote previously, and also to look at some of the recent links I have posted. It is up to you to decide for yourselves, and I would exhort you to pray about it.
The RCC never lost the Truth. But it did not always preach or follow that Truth adequately, being human, but that does not mean that Truth was forgotten, just as I sin even when I know the sin is wrong.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

Cool Breeze
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Cool Breeze »

Navigator wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:20 pm
Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:24 pm

I have liked most Mormons I have encountered as people, but their religion is nonsense, the same playbook that Muhammad used to game other followers, get multiple wives (coincidence? I think not), and reinforce tribalism. Restoration religions are not only lying religions, they create made up stories that are clearly false.
Unless you are Roman Catholic, and even then, you have to believe that what was going on in the Dark Ages was OK, you believe that Christianity went off the rails within a hundred years or so of Christ.

Most people, unfortunately, do not look at the details of what is available through the Church of Jesus Christ, and instead rely on hearsay. I would urge others to look at what I wrote previously, and also to look at some of the recent links I have posted. It is up to you to decide for yourselves, and I would exhort you to pray about it.
Joseph Smith knows more about Christianity than the ancient fathers of the church who were literally taught by the apostles? Shall I name these saints, who weren't from New York or from the 19th century? They were in direct contact with the apostles and those who were with Christ, wrote the new testament and many treatise on the faith, spoke greek and understood the original doctrines and practice, etc.

I have found that most people don't know the history of the church, and especially the early church, and I perceive that you are unaware also since you just referenced the "Roman Catholics" who don't apply to anything of what I wrote in the above paragraph.

Cool Breeze
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Cool Breeze »

John wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:17 pm
There seems to be no limit to your hatred of and contempt for people
of other religions and races.
Why do you say stuff like this? Not only is it false, it is foolish - you don't know the first thing about what I have done in my life, or what the state of my heart and mind are.

John
Posts: 11479
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
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Re: Religion / Theology

Post by John »

** 21-Jan-2022 World View: Stuff like this
John wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:17 pm
> There seems to be no limit to your hatred of and contempt for
> people of other religions and races.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:08 pm
> Why do you say stuff like this? Not only is it false, it is
> foolish - you don't know the first thing about what I have done in
> my life, or what the state of my heart and mind are.
All I know about you is the words that you post. Look at the words in
your post that I quoted, and see why I "say stuff like this." You're
intelligent enough to figure it out.

You could do better if you wanted to.

Navigator
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm

Test for Yourself

Post by Navigator »

Navigator wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:50 am
Navigator wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:39 pm
I am done with Holiday activities and have some more time to write, and I have wanted to continue on this theme:
That God is organized, has a plan, and oversees that plan.

As I have written before, I believe that substantial portions of Gospel truth were lost during the dark ages. I believe that this was a result of apostacy in the church set up by Christ.

I believe that God fully anticipated this, as the consequences of the apostacy were warned about by the Apostles.

I also believe that not only were Gospel truths lost, but the authority to act in God’s name (his priesthood) was also taken away as a result of the apostacy.

I do not believe that God has just left us on our own, especially as we approach the times of the return of his Son, Jesus Christ.

I believe that God is organized and has a plan. I believe the history of the world is following the plan God laid out for it.

Part of God the Father’s plan would be to put things in place to assist the world during the crises that presage the return of his Son.

First would be the restoration of much of the knowledge lost as a result of the apostacy. I have written concerning what some of that lost knowledge was in this particular thread. This restored knowledge would come to us both in the form of scripture, and through prophetic revelation. Just as it had throughout biblical times.

Second, I believe that authority to act in Christ’s name would also be restored. Part of this restoration of authority would involve the restoration of an ecumenical structure that would mirror that of the one set up by Christ. This structure would include Apostles, Prophets (Peter acted as one following Christ’s ascension), Seventies, Bishops, and Teachers. Christ, being perfect, would have established a perfect organizational structure to administer to his flock, and to spread the gospel. Christ would call, through revelation, people to positions in this structure. It would not be based on elections or popularity or money or politics.

Third, the restored knowledge would be spread through missionary work to the world by those that had received and accepted it. This would enable God to re-assemble his flock in modern times, to warn the world of the consequences of their actions, to call the sinners to repentance, and to aid and protect the righteous and repentant during the prophesied “end times”.
I believe that the Gospel Truths lost during the Dark Ages have been restored. I believe that God has restored not only the truths, but the organizational structure needed to assist all people in preparation for the return of his Son, as prophesied by the Bible.

I do not believe that he has left each of us to our own devices. There is information to help us prepare, and there are specific things he wants us to do.

As a result of reading the Book of Mormon, I have found it to be a testimony of Christ's divinity, and also of the restoration of the lost knowledge I have written about in this column. I believe it to be true. I believe that anyone can have a similar testimony by reading some of it (I would suggest the first 30 pages or so) and praying about it.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng

[This is the English language link, but it is available in any language by clicking on the globe icon to the upper right in the page and selecting a different language]

I am not here to harangue or brow-beat anybody or to force them to do anything. I have explained my reasoning and invite all to take the opportunity to do this.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and am so due to my reading both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and then asking Heavenly Father if these records are true or not. I got an answer, and have acted accordingly.
The Church of Jesus Christ has as its touchstone the Book of Mormon. Either this book is true, or the Church is not what it purports to be.

The test is to read some of the Book of Mormon and ask God yourself if it is true or not. No argument or discussion can make up for doing this.

I would recommend the above link and reading the first 30 pages or so. It is up to you.

As one who has done this, and feels that he has been immeasurably blessed with further light and knowledge as a result, I can only urge you to do so. It would only take you about an hour or so.

Guest

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Guest »

Navigator's reverence for the Founding Fathers and his nearly holy view of the Constitution alerted me to his religion. No, I'm not kidding. I know how Mormons view the US Constitution and even George Washington and a reported vision that he once had. Interesting stuff. And Yes, I also believe the US Constitution and America are in danger. I will happily fight shoulder to shoulder with true American patriots regardless of their religious beliefs. We need unity now, not people retreating into redoubts...

Cool Breeze
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Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

Re: Religion / Theology

Post by Cool Breeze »

Guest wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:52 am
Navigator's reverence for the Founding Fathers and his nearly holy view of the Constitution alerted me to his religion. No, I'm not kidding. I know how Mormons view the US Constitution and even George Washington and a reported vision that he once had. Interesting stuff. And Yes, I also believe the US Constitution and America are in danger. I will happily fight shoulder to shoulder with true American patriots regardless of their religious beliefs. We need unity now, not people retreating into redoubts...
I agree with this.

I read the first few chapters, and it seemed to me that it is a version of old prophets and even John the Baptist type figures (they are hated by most "jews" for telling the truth). I can't get over how a guy supposedly was revealed this stuff, about 1900 years later and happened to be from New York, a restorationist (because you can't challenge "revelation" and can always claim the people before did something wrong or lied, that's what Muhammad did too). And somehow my ancestors who have always practiced the true faith in the cradle where it was born, spoke and wrote the actual bible in its original language, never changed their beliefs or practice, still do it ... that somehow is more dubious than a rando from NY in the 19th century claiming things? What's more likely? Any reasonable person would say that if either case is true the orthodox christians are clearly the ones that aren't bunk, not the restorationist, that's just too easy and there aren't thousands of supporting reasons for Joe Smith, just self interest.

I think that's why "America" is so special in these people's eyes - Joe was from America and they have this odd genetic fallacy and bizarre teachings on Jesus with native americans that are supposedly semitic peoples too. I am/was a patriot but America is now generally under the control of evil forces, and has been for decades, I think we all agree.

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