Abortion

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Re: Abortion

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Cool Breeze wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:07 pm
John wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:11 pm
Tuesday, December 20, 2022

I heard a former priest on Fox News today talking about generational changes in the priesthood. he said that young men who joined the priesthood in the 1950s intended to be conservative, well those joining in the 1980s tended to be liberal. he said that those joining the priesthood today tend to be conservative.

this view is supported by the story in the last few days about the Catholic priest. Frank pavone who has been kicked out of the priesthood because he's been an outspoken anti-abortion, pro-life proponent.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Internationa ... s-95496672
It was funny that when Jorge Bergoglio finally became pope, the joke of asking "Is the Pope catholic?" finally became another inverted joke of quite clearly, no. Pretty darn funny and at the same time, sad.
As a Catholic, I have not attended mass in over 20 years. This is why. My anger at being deprived of access to the teachers of my faith by their own moral ill means nothing to them. They will continue to abuse any and all trust that is given to them.
Frankly, I wish that the whole leadership of the Catholic Church would be imprisoned and asked to prove their innocence of trust and or child abuse – a different standard of care applies to priests. Burn the Vatican to the ground and start again.

Cool Breeze
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Re: Abortion

Post by Cool Breeze »

Lucky for you, the original church still exists and you can find out about it.

When you find out that the "Roman Catholic" church is actually neither roman nor catholic, you will have arrived - and it will all make sense. Keep seeking.

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Re: Abortion

Post by Guest »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:48 pm
Lucky for you, the original church still exists and you can find out about it.

When you find out that the "Roman Catholic" church is actually neither roman nor catholic, you will have arrived - and it will all make sense. Keep seeking.
For the mass rape of children alone, the Catholic Church should be dismantled.

Pope Francis is hated in his own country. Ask yourself why, in all his years as Pontiff, he has never set foot in Argentina?

Have you ever wondered why so many Argentinians hate Pope Francis? Research it yourself. Prepare for a shock.

Cool Breeze
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Re: Abortion

Post by Cool Breeze »

I don't doubt it. I'm not concerned with it, but yes Bergoglio becoming pontiff didn't help.

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Bob Butler
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Catholics and Abuse

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:20 am
As a Catholic, I have not attended mass in over 20 years. This is why. My anger at being deprived of access to the teachers of my faith by their own moral ill means nothing to them. They will continue to abuse any and all trust that is given to them.
Frankly, I wish that the whole leadership of the Catholic Church would be imprisoned and asked to prove their innocence of trust and or child abuse – a different standard of care applies to priests. Burn the Vatican to the ground and start again.
In medieval times, forbidding priests to marry was a solution to the problem of some families dominating the nobility while crossing it with church power. It didn’t eliminate the sex urges of priests. Humans remained human. This resulted in much abuse becoming traditional, contributing to the large gap between what the priests taught and how they behaved. The church and the nobility were the two major power structures, and they intermingled. The church was more a political institution than a moral one. As I said before, the Agricultural Age was a mess. Centuries later and there are still medieval flaws for progressive folks to want to fix.

As a former Catholic, I still honor Jesus, his ‘love they neighbor’ ethic, and the impulse towards charity of his early church, but I have not attended mass in over 50 years. ‘Love thy neighbor’ does not imply one should make love to thy neighbor’s children.

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Tom Mazanec
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Re: Abortion

Post by Tom Mazanec »

Have you come up with a definition of sentience better than 'able to use language'? Is there a way to define sentience in which a fetus is measurably sentient but your typical cow is not? The two groups making noise on the pro life side are the catholics and evangelicals. It is for them a religious doctrine. Enforcing religious doctrines cannot be the business of the government. The definition of becoming a citizen involves being born in the US. The unborn are not US citizens and should not be treated as such. If the conservatives want the pro life vote at the expense of the woman's vote, I'll take the trade off. In a democracy, the majority opinion of the voters are supposed to count for something.

The abortion question is a difficult ambiguous one, unresolved. You make it seem like it is obvious. It isn't. In this case you go with freedom or the majority vote, not a religious doctrine. As far as I am concerned the key difference is between not killing a sentient and not killing something which might eventually become a sentient. Stating which while pretending it is decisive does not change this.
.
Does a post-sentient human have a right to life? Say, a human adult who has suffered brain injury and is in a permanent vegetative state, and who is costing considerable money. That is a large inconvenience to the wife. Should she be able to euthanize her husband?
Is a one year old infant sentient? A two year old toddler? A five year old child?
Is a temporarily nonsentient human in deep non-REM sleep entitled to a right to life?
Was the vote for Hitler a majority vote? Was the votes of secession of the CSA states a majority vote?
And is freedom an absolute? Freedom to equalize distribution of goods by stealing from the rich to give to the poor? Freedom of LGB people to engage in sexual conduct? Freedom of people born with a rape fetish to rape women?
If I make it "seem" obvious it may be because it is obvious to me. Your position is the one that seems illogical.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

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Bob Butler
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Answering Tom's Abortion Questions

Post by Bob Butler »

Tom Mazanec wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:32 pm
Does a post-sentient human have a right to life? Say, a human adult who has suffered brain injury and is in a permanent vegetative state, and who is costing considerable money. That is a large inconvenience to the wife. Should she be able to euthanize her husband?
Is a one year old infant sentient? A two year old toddler? A five year old child?

Is a temporarily nonsentient human in deep non-REM sleep entitled to a right to life?

Was the vote for Hitler a majority vote? Was the votes of secession of the CSA states a majority vote?

And is freedom an absolute? Freedom to equalize distribution of goods by stealing from the rich to give to the poor? Freedom of LGB people to engage in sexual conduct? Freedom of people born with a rape fetish to rape women?

If I make it "seem" obvious it may be because it is obvious to me. Your position is the one that seems illogical.
Quick answers…

A clearly post sentient individual who has no chance of recovering looses all rights. His wife would often recommend pulling life support these days, and the government would be unlikely to meddle. A temporarily post sentient individual would not lose any rights. If the wife attempted to save money through murder, the doctors ought to balk and the state ought to take an interest.

You have not clearly defined sentient. I proposed ‘able to use language’. If humans are the only sentient creatures and only ones to use fully developed language, it seemed to make sense. I’m open to other definitions. My definition comes up with becoming sentient around one year after birth. I personally go with three months before birth out of extreme caution. Again, propose a definition consistent with your religious doctrine. How is a fetus sentient and a cow not?

Hitler harmed people. Rule of law generally says don’t steal and don’t murder, which amounts to do not harm others. Any example involving harming others is bogus. For example stealing from the rich, holding slaves, raping women all get called into question. Does your religious doctrine require lawlessness? Freedom is a basic principle, but does not justify harming others. To quote the Neo pagans, “Do as thou will, but harm none.”

LGB sex would not usually involve anyone being harmed. As with other forms of sex, the government should not take an interest unless someone is being harmed.

If you think the question is obvious, you clearly have not thought it through.

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Tom Mazanec
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Re: Abortion

Post by Tom Mazanec »

Have you thought through what you said...“Do as thou will, but harm none.”?
Abortion harms the baby. That is my political Prime Directive. The right to life from conception to natural death.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

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Bob Butler
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What can a fetus do that a cow cannot?

Post by Bob Butler »

The question is who is sentient. Everyone says killing cows is OK. Some say killing a fetus is not. The question is what separates a cow from a fetus. What can a fetus do that a cow can’t? Until you convince people that you have found a uniquely correct definition of sentient that applies to the fetus but not to the cow, you have nothing.

So, again, define sentience. I have offered to listen many times. You have not responded. I strongly suspect that is because you can’t.

Now if you have a religious doctrine, I won’t get in your way. You are free to practice your own religious doctrine. You are not free to force your doctrine on those who do not believe in it.

In my youth, we ate fish on Friday, but the government made no rules that forced it. Today, Iran tries to force women to wear hijabs. The government here is forbidden by the the US Constitution to make one religion official and enforce its doctrine.

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Tom Mazanec
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Re: Abortion

Post by Tom Mazanec »

Your definition of sentience would allow babies in the first year after birth to be killed. Would you allow this? I believe in protecting ALL humans. You believe in protecting some. I find that morally as repulsive as someone who protects only light-skinned humans. I would oppose legally prohibiting Sunday/Holiday Mass attendance, even though missing Mass without a very good excuse is a Mortal Sin. But I favor laws protecting all human life.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

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