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Horseman

Re: Who is collapsing?

Post by Horseman »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:40 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:22 pm
Higgenbotham wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:36 pm
The liberal welfare state is collapsing. In the big picture Trump was just another liberal. He spent copious amounts of money and ran up copious amounts of debt, just less than the far left liberals. A conservative position would have been to issue shoot to kill orders for illegals crossing the border, not fund a wall. Bullets are cheap. The individuals that emerge out of the coming anarchy, as Navigator suggests, will do that type of thing.
It is not America that collapses at the end of a crisis, it is the conservative faction. After each crisis, there was a focus during the high on economics and infrastructure, a boom. America thrives. But there were those who profited from flaws that ran into a civic generation. The civic generation's idea of what they would be like in the future did not include those flaws. Colonial imperialism, slavery and isolationism just went away. It was the conservative faction that collapsed. Lies, greed, racism, fixation on power, and forcing one’s culture on others are apt to follow.

This does not mean there won't be good things worth preserving in the next cycle, or that people who profit from the flaws won't try to keep them in the culture. But that's for the next civic generation. There are enough unsolved problems left in the culture that the S&H four score and seven year cycle is apt to continue. The next bunch of conservatives have generally not fought for what their predecessors fought for, but there has always been a no change faction in every crisis. They just happen to be losers.
Naturally, I don't agree with all of it, but Navigator's commentary is serious commentary. I put it up as a contrast so that those who may not have seen it or may have forgotten it could see it or be reminded.
Civic nationalism doesn't work--ask the Ottoman Turks. or the Romans. Or the English.

Navigator and Higgenbotham understand what is happening. Butler does not. When I first started reading Butler's posts, I thought he was joking. I really did.

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Bob Butler
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Civic Nationalism

Post by Bob Butler »

Horseman wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:25 am

Civic nationalism doesn't work--ask the Ottoman Turks. or the Romans. Or the English.

Navigator and Higgenbotham understand what is happening. Butler does not. When I first started reading Butler's posts, I thought he was joking. I really did.
Wikipedia wrote:Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, individual rights and is not based on ethnocentrism. Civic nationalists often defend the value of national identity by saying that individuals need a national identity in order to lead meaningful, autonomous lives and that democratic polities need national identity in order to function properly.

Civic nationalism is frequently contrasted with ethnic nationalism. Historically, civic nationalism was a determining factor in the development of modern constitutional and democratic forms of government, whereas ethnic nationalism has been more associated with authoritarian rule and even dictatorship.

Civic nationhood is a political identity built around shared citizenship within the state. Thus, a "civic nation" is defined not by culture but by political institutions and liberal principles, which its citizens pledge to uphold. Membership in the civic nation is open to every citizen by citizenship, regardless of culture or ethnicity; those who share these values are considered members of the nation. For example, according to the Article 66 of the Turkish Constitution, those who receive Turkish citizenship are considered as a "Turk" even if their ethnicity is not Turkish.

In theory, a civic nation or state does not aim to promote one culture over another. German philosopher Jürgen Habermas argued that immigrants to a liberal-democratic state need not assimilate into the host culture but only accept the principles of the country's constitution (constitutional patriotism).
Does this reflect your idea of civic nationalism? You oppose things like freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights? Are you really advocating an authoritarian position?

I would add I was referring to a civic (or hero) S&H generation, not to civic nationalism. By the above definition I would agree with civic nationalism, but that is not what I was referring to.

Guest

Re: Civic Nationalism

Post by Guest »

Bob Butler wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:26 am
Horseman wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:25 am

Civic nationalism doesn't work--ask the Ottoman Turks. or the Romans. Or the English.

Navigator and Higgenbotham understand what is happening. Butler does not. When I first started reading Butler's posts, I thought he was joking. I really did.
Wikipedia wrote:Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, individual rights and is not based on ethnocentrism. Civic nationalists often defend the value of national identity by saying that individuals need a national identity in order to lead meaningful, autonomous lives and that democratic polities need national identity in order to function properly.

Civic nationalism is frequently contrasted with ethnic nationalism. Historically, civic nationalism was a determining factor in the development of modern constitutional and democratic forms of government, whereas ethnic nationalism has been more associated with authoritarian rule and even dictatorship.

Civic nationhood is a political identity built around shared citizenship within the state. Thus, a "civic nation" is defined not by culture but by political institutions and liberal principles, which its citizens pledge to uphold. Membership in the civic nation is open to every citizen by citizenship, regardless of culture or ethnicity; those who share these values are considered members of the nation. For example, according to the Article 66 of the Turkish Constitution, those who receive Turkish citizenship are considered as a "Turk" even if their ethnicity is not Turkish.

In theory, a civic nation or state does not aim to promote one culture over another. German philosopher Jürgen Habermas argued that immigrants to a liberal-democratic state need not assimilate into the host culture but only accept the principles of the country's constitution (constitutional patriotism).
Does this reflect your idea of civic nationalism? You oppose things like freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights? Are you really advocating an authoritarian position?

I would add I was referring to a civic (or hero) S&H generation, not to civic nationalism. By the above definition I would agree with civic nationalism, but that is not what I was referring to.
You miss the obvious. Reread the definition carefully.

Guest No 3

Re: Civic Nationalism

Post by Guest No 3 »

Bob Butler wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:26 am
Horseman wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:25 am

Civic nationalism doesn't work--ask the Ottoman Turks. or the Romans. Or the English.

Navigator and Higgenbotham understand what is happening. Butler does not. When I first started reading Butler's posts, I thought he was joking. I really did.
Wikipedia wrote:Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, individual rights and is not based on ethnocentrism. Civic nationalists often defend the value of national identity by saying that individuals need a national identity in order to lead meaningful, autonomous lives and that democratic polities need national identity in order to function properly.

Civic nationalism is frequently contrasted with ethnic nationalism. Historically, civic nationalism was a determining factor in the development of modern constitutional and democratic forms of government, whereas ethnic nationalism has been more associated with authoritarian rule and even dictatorship.

Civic nationhood is a political identity built around shared citizenship within the state. Thus, a "civic nation" is defined not by culture but by political institutions and liberal principles, which its citizens pledge to uphold. Membership in the civic nation is open to every citizen by citizenship, regardless of culture or ethnicity; those who share these values are considered members of the nation. For example, according to the Article 66 of the Turkish Constitution, those who receive Turkish citizenship are considered as a "Turk" even if their ethnicity is not Turkish.

In theory, a civic nation or state does not aim to promote one culture over another. German philosopher Jürgen Habermas argued that immigrants to a liberal-democratic state need not assimilate into the host culture but only accept the principles of the country's constitution (constitutional patriotism).
Does this reflect your idea of civic nationalism? You oppose things like freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights? Are you really advocating an authoritarian position?

I would add I was referring to a civic (or hero) S&H generation, not to civic nationalism. By the above definition I would agree with civic nationalism, but that is not what I was referring to.
Cool Breeze, or one of the others, will have to explain it to him.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Civic Nationalism

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest No 3 wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:18 am
Bob Butler wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:26 am
Does this reflect your idea of civic nationalism? You oppose things like freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights? Are you really advocating an authoritarian position?

I would add I was referring to a civic (or hero) S&H generation, not to civic nationalism. By the above definition I would agree with civic nationalism, but that is not what I was referring to.
Cool Breeze, or one of the others, will have to explain it to him.
Still missing the supposedly obvious.

I’m not totally thrilled with the Romans or English. Both utilized conquest and colonial imperialism, though that mostly ended after World War II. Still, you can’t say the two empires didn’t work. They are two of the larger and sustained empires of their time periods.

I have not made much of a study of the Turks.

I would note the virtues listed above - freedom, tolerance, equality, and rights - are those that were developed by the enlightenment. Cultures have had lots of time to assimilate them by now, but many haven’t. The Romans, English and Turks are early examples of what came to be known as civic nationalist cultures, but all three had strong elements of ethnic nationalism. They tried to push parts of their culture on cultures they conquered. Their troubles came from people not wanting to be coerced and changed. They weren't truly allowing people to practice their own cultures. I would say only after World War II when the US lend lease loans were forgiven if a nation opened its colonial ports that something approaching true civic nationalism evolved.

I know Trump was a Putin friend and that some Republicans are trying to pull support from Ukraine. They are the autocratic leaning element of US culture. I’m just mildly surprised to run into people so openly autocratic.

Higgenbotham
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Re: Who is collapsing?

Post by Higgenbotham »

Horseman wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:25 am
Civic nationalism doesn't work--ask the Ottoman Turks. or the Romans. Or the English.

Navigator and Higgenbotham understand what is happening. Butler does not. When I first started reading Butler's posts, I thought he was joking. I really did.
I hadn't heard of civic nationalism but, years ago, I read two books that made me realize how fragile civic nationalism is and how powerful the desire for ethnic nationalism can be in the heart of the ordinary man. Those were The Silent Brotherhood, which I've mentioned, and also Balefire, which I have not mentioned. I picked up a copy of Balefire for a buck or two at a used book shop and it completely altered my view of the reality of power. The professional and managerial class in the United States (what I call The 97th Percentile) believes that, regardless of reality, their "vision" and "messaging" can define what the world is and what it will become. The world is what it is and reality is closing in on them.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

Guest

Re: Who is collapsing?

Post by Guest »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:14 pm
Horseman wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:25 am
Civic nationalism doesn't work--ask the Ottoman Turks. or the Romans. Or the English.

Navigator and Higgenbotham understand what is happening. Butler does not. When I first started reading Butler's posts, I thought he was joking. I really did.
I hadn't heard of civic nationalism but, years ago, I read two books that made me realize how fragile civic nationalism is and how powerful the desire for ethnic nationalism can be in the heart of the ordinary man. Those were The Silent Brotherhood, which I've mentioned, and also Balefire, which I have not mentioned. I picked up a copy of Balefire for a buck or two at a used book shop and it completely altered my view of the reality of power. The professional and managerial class in the United States (what I call The 97th Percentile) believes that, regardless of reality, their "vision" and "messaging" can define what the world is and what it will become. The world is what it is and reality is closing in on them.
That's it. Multi-ethnic countries fail. The idea that people are interchangeable and race and culture do not matter. It really matters. Look at Yugoslavia; the differences were not racial but cultural and nominally religious. There must be a super dominant group in power. That's why the CCP is destroying the Muslims in China, because they have failed to turm them into Chinese. They know the danger. The Romans were overwhelmed by barbarians. Civic nationalism fails because is doesn't take human nature into consideration.

I do not support the CCP policies in anyway.

My point is that empires collapse because people want to be with their own kind. A tiny minority can be tolerated, but as they grow larger, they come into conflict with other groups. It is what it is. People Like G. Soros and the WEF don't get it. Or maybe they do and just want to destroy Europe and North America for some deranged reason.

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Bob Butler
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Can't we just get along?

Post by Bob Butler »

If you try to force your own culture on somebody else, expect them to resist and make trouble. If you try to take away freedom, tolerance, equality, and rights, you get in trouble. If you are ethnic Chinese and try to make the Muslims into ethnic Chinese, destroying their culture, trouble. If you are a Turk and try to impose on the Kurds, you get in trouble. If you are Roman and try to get the Jews to behave, well, good luck. Just drive them away from their homeland for a bunch of centuries. If you are a Catholic and try to impose your values on women, you can find out that the religious fanatic vote is smaller than the woman’s vote. If you are British and want to make the Zulu behave, it will make for a nice movie, but it won’t be a pretty one. (Although the scene where the Zulu war chant is going on behind the British four part harmony is nice.) If you are a white supremacist and try to impose yourself on minorities, you get in trouble.

I agree that you can get in trouble by trying to impose your culture on others, but haven’t we crossed that bridge already? The best you can do is try not to impose on anyone. You aren’t going to get all but the white bigoted religious fanatics to leave the US. They are going to have to learn to get along. Not easy. Some are firmly in the habit of imposing on others. It is just that the enlightenment happened, and it didn’t take for some.

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Bob Butler
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Civic Nationalism

Post by Bob Butler »

The civic nationalism vs ethnic nationalism language just seems a rewording of the issue we have been discussing all along. Generational Dynamics has its Marco Polo Bridge instinct. Man has a drive to hate, oppress and kill those who are different. In the survival of the fittest sense this is understandable. The genes of those who did it spread. The species became deadlier. In terms of setting up a more desirable environment, it is less desirable. You face a lot of hate, oppression and death.

You should be aware of that instinct when anticipating what other cultures will do, but be even more aware of that instinct when people in your own culture are doing it. With technology becoming more advanced, everything between spree killers with assault rifles and autocratic nations with nukes make the Marco Polo Bridge instinct far less easy to live with.

This includes all the cultures mentioned in the above post. In international affairs, many autocratic expansionist cultures are just exercising this instinct, while many economic and containment oriented cultures are attempting to resist it. I believe it often comes into play too with spree killers, bad cops and other domestic troubles.

Is anyone really in favor of hate, oppression and murder? Are they that much better when you are the one doing the hatred, oppression and murder? It sure isn’t pretty to be on the other side.

Supposing that global warming is true, costal flooding removes inhabitable land while lands in Canada and Siberia warm up and become more inhabitable. On Cape Cod we just had ‘the Blizzard of 23’, three inches of snow that was mostly melted by noon. After reading of hurricanes in Florida, floods in Texas, tornadoes in the middle states and fires and drought in California, I have thought that here in New England we are one of the few areas that is coming out ahead in global warming, and Canada and Siberia might follow. Still, my sister the ski nut isn’t happy.

Should ethnic nationalism be a factor on how those lands become settled? Should we be careful that specific areas be reserved for a given culture, and that no one is allowed to impose on other areas?

Or should we just learn to get along? As this is the theology section, should we learn to love our neighbors?

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Tom Mazanec
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Re: Abortion

Post by Tom Mazanec »

This is how bad it has gotten:
WATCH: Jane Fonda Says People Should “Murder” Pro-Lifers
by Ben Warren
March 10th 2023, 1:32 pm
https://www.infowars.com/posts/watch-ja ... ro-lifers/
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

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