Abortion

Topics related to theology.
User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Except...

Post by Bob Butler »

We’ll see if any of the 950+ get to hold elected office. None of their other crimes have the no office punishment, only if you took part in an insurrection. I expect that no one will try except Trump.

Guest

Re: Abortion

Post by Guest »

Hitler was never voted out of office - Trump was. Hitler was removed by Allied armies - Trump was removed by the voters.

Hitler involved his country in numerous new wars - Trump didn't.

The population of Germany declined dramatically during Hitler's time in office - the population of the US continued to climb during Trump's tenure.

Germany's GDP at the end of Hitler's time in power was drastically lower than Germany's GDP when Hitler first took power. America's GDP at the end of Trump's time is power was 20936.60 billion US dollars. When Trump took power in 2016, the figure was 18,745.08 billion US dollars.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Abortion and Hitler

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:55 am
Hitler was never voted out of office - Trump was. Hitler was removed by Allied armies - Trump was removed by the voters...
If you are trying to imply Hitler was worse than Trump, I have no argument. On the abortion thread, I would add that Jewish women and other 'undesirables' were subject to involuntary abortions as part of the holocaust. Trump only separated families. Again, Hitler worse. Just as well you set a low bar.

https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUploadPubli ... /22849.pdf

Guest

Re: Abortion and Hitler

Post by Guest »

Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:14 am
Guest wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:55 am
Hitler was never voted out of office - Trump was. Hitler was removed by Allied armies - Trump was removed by the voters...
If you are trying to imply Hitler was worse than Trump, I have no argument. On the abortion thread, I would add that Jewish women and other 'undesirables' were subject to involuntary abortions as part of the holocaust. Trump only separated families. Again, Hitler worse. Just as well you set a low bar.

https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUploadPubli ... /22849.pdf
I'm saying that Donald Trump is not remotely like Adolf Hitler.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Re: Trump and Hitler

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:37 pm
I'm saying that Donald Trump is not remotely like Adolf Hitler.
Yah. Hitler played military games, where Trump mostly played economic. We'll just see the difference in how they collapse.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Re: Trump and Hitler again

Post by Bob Butler »

Guest wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:37 pm
I'm saying that Donald Trump is not remotely like Adolf Hitler.
On long thinking of comparing Hitler and Trump, several broad ideas.

Each crisis ends with the total collapse of the conservative perspective, and the two were the heads of two such perspectives. They ought to have something in common.

Racism for one. They focused on very different groups, but it was there.

Both moved into politics at the top, owing little to any established political party or organization.

Both were criminal, relying on insurrection and in Trumps endeavors long before he went into politics.

Both have a habit of taking down their allies as they go. With Hitler, after his master race and his generals failed him, he fought them to the death. With Trump, his lawyers, senior advisers, children and now his base are crashing with him.

Not totally different. Hitler was into conquest, Trump economics. That difference is huge.

But also democracies can more easily get rid of a bad leader than an autocracy. Trump only had four years. Frankly, I can’t see how Trump would be allowed to make as great of a mess of America as Hitler did of Germany.

Higgenbotham
Posts: 7436
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Trump and Hitler again

Post by Higgenbotham »

Bob Butler wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:08 am
Guest wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:37 pm
I'm saying that Donald Trump is not remotely like Adolf Hitler.
On long thinking of comparing Hitler and Trump, several broad ideas.

Each crisis ends with the total collapse of the conservative perspective, and the two were the heads of two such perspectives. They ought to have something in common.

Racism for one. They focused on very different groups, but it was there.

Both moved into politics at the top, owing little to any established political party or organization.

Both were criminal, relying on insurrection and in Trumps endeavors long before he went into politics.

Both have a habit of taking down their allies as they go. With Hitler, after his master race and his generals failed him, he fought them to the death. With Trump, his lawyers, senior advisers, children and now his base are crashing with him.

Not totally different. Hitler was into conquest, Trump economics. That difference is huge.

But also democracies can more easily get rid of a bad leader than an autocracy. Trump only had four years. Frankly, I can’t see how Trump would be allowed to make as great of a mess of America as Hitler did of Germany.
The liberal welfare state is collapsing. In the big picture Trump was just another liberal. He spent copious amounts of money and ran up copious amounts of debt, just less than the far left liberals. A conservative position would have been to issue shoot to kill orders for illegals crossing the border, not fund a wall. Bullets are cheap. The individuals that emerge out of the coming anarchy, as Navigator suggests, will do that type of thing.
Navigator wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:22 pm
I thought it might help explain my points of view if I explained a bit how I came to Generational Dynamics, and how my views align (or do not align) with this system/philosophy.

As a hobbyist historian, I found it curious that the major events in US History seemed to follow an 80 year cycle. 80 years between the Revolution and the Civil War. 80 years between the Civil War and World War Two. To me, things like this are not chance.

You see, I am a somewhat religious person. I believe that at the most fundamental level, there is either a “Higher Power” or everything happens “by chance”. I think that if you don’t believe in a “Higher Power” then you believe that the Universe/world/mankind were created “by chance”, the so-called random events that would need to occur for life to exist.

Personally, I believe that there is a “Higher Power”. Furthermore, I believe that this “Higher Power’s” greatest creation is not celestial bodies or orbiting planets, but rather the History of this World.

So, when I looked at the cycles that seemed to be occurring, I found that John had developed a good model for explaining the stages of the repeating cycle and how different nationalities/cultures can be in different stages at any given point in time.

I was further enamored of John’s distillation of current world events. His daily articles usually had more insight into what was actually happening than bundles of newspapers and innumerable websites. BTW, I miss those articles very much.

I am in agreement with John over the next basic steps, financial calamity and World War.

However, I do think, in contrast to John, that the “other side” in the war will be a China/Russia main alliance. I, personally, don’t have an opinion on how the Sunni/Shiite thing will split in the war, as I consider both (currently) so far off base as to want nothing to do with either faction. I do have hopes for Iran to fix itself, as Generational Dynamics predicts.

One of the reasons I believe in the China/Russia alliance is my personal belief that Europe is not going to remain untouched by a major war between primarily US and China (or, as John predicts, between US-Russia and China). In fact, I think that a lot of the upcoming future war will take place in Central Europe, and that WW III will have a two-front dynamic for the US that WW II did.

I believe that God (the “Higher Power”) provides guidance and clues regarding what is going to happen next. In some way, I believe that what will happen next is similar to what happened in the last two World Wars.

To me, the First World War was about the destruction of the great absolute monarchies (Russia, Austria-Hungary, and Germany). The war saw their demise. There followed, for Central Europe, a period of near anarchy, of revolutions, coups, and financial chaos. And out of this arose a number of dictators who were far worse than the absolute monarchs; Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini.

This is roughly what I think will happen with WW III. The next world war will utterly destroy the socialist states. They will no longer be able to provide for their citizens. And the people do not have the social structures to compensate for this. This will lead to a post WW III period for Europe that will be FAR worse than the post WW I period. And the individuals with power that will emerge out of this anarchy, I believe, will be far worse than Hitler and Stalin.

As bad as this sounds, I believe it is all part of the plan of history designed by God. I believe that history was designed to fulfill a purpose, and that it has a culmination. In the end, I believe the culmination results in a “greater good”, but it will be an extremely trying and difficult period to experience first hand.
Navigator wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:10 pm
Guest wrote:
This is roughly what I think will happen with WW III. The next world war will utterly destroy the socialist states. They will no longer be able to provide for their citizens. And the people do not have the social structures to compensate for this. This will lead to a post WW III period for Europe that will be FAR worse than the post WW I period. And the individuals with power that will emerge out of this anarchy, I believe, will be far worse than Hitler and Stalin.
Do you see countries even existing in Europe after World War 3 or are you talking Mad Max? What will Europe look like after the next world war? I would like you to expand on this?

Also, i'm religious too, and I follow what you are saying. I just wonder if we are heading for another Noah's Ark like event (few survivors)?
I think that countries will try to exist after WW3. The problem with the socialist states is that they have done a lot to destroy the basic building block of society, the family.

Prior to socialism, we had extended families. This meant grandparents living with their children and grandchildren. Socialism and Moral Decay (manifest in divorce rates) have ended the extended family and done a lot of damage to family ties. Without familial bonds, and without government subsidies for individuals (be that social security or welfare of some kind), societies will, IMHO, fall apart.

Concerning families, I wrote about some of this in my blog:
https://comingstorms.com/family-change-part-1/

https://comingstorms.com/family-change-part-2/

Then, of course, there is the problem with people who are living entirely on state support. What do you think these people will do when they stop getting government support? They aren't just going to sit there and starve.

These two things, family disintegration and dependence on state support, put us all in "new territory" as far as the cycle goes.


Add this to what you can read about Germany or Russia at the end of World War One.
Navigator wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:09 pm
Guest wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:27 pm
Navigator mentioned the world will end up being ruled by dictators in a past post. What countries does he see becoming the new superpowers (or regional powers)?
My belief is that after a major war, and after the collapse of the welfare states, the world is going to look something like a map of Germany after the 30 Years War (roughly mid 1600s).

Who becomes a major power after that is anyone's guess, but many will try to become one. Leaders will arise in many areas. If they can unify their "tribe" or ethnicity, instill a warrior ethos in their people, and have access to enough resources, then they can embark on conquests. Their aim will be to end up in a position similar to Charlemange (or better).
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Who is collapsing?

Post by Bob Butler »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:36 pm
The liberal welfare state is collapsing. In the big picture Trump was just another liberal. He spent copious amounts of money and ran up copious amounts of debt, just less than the far left liberals. A conservative position would have been to issue shoot to kill orders for illegals crossing the border, not fund a wall. Bullets are cheap. The individuals that emerge out of the coming anarchy, as Navigator suggests, will do that type of thing.
It is not America that collapses at the end of a crisis, it is the conservative faction. After each crisis, there was a focus during the high on economics and infrastructure, a boom. America thrives. But there were those who profited from flaws that ran into a civic generation. The civic generation's idea of what they would be like in the future did not include those flaws. Colonial imperialism, slavery and isolationism just went away. It was the conservative faction that collapsed. Lies, greed, racism, fixation on power, and forcing one’s culture on others are apt to follow.

This does not mean there won't be good things worth preserving in the next cycle, or that people who profit from the flaws won't try to keep them in the culture. But that's for the next civic generation. There are enough unsolved problems left in the culture that the S&H four score and seven year cycle is apt to continue. The next bunch of conservatives have generally not fought for what their predecessors fought for, but there has always been a no change faction in every crisis. They just happen to be losers.

Higgenbotham
Posts: 7436
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Who is collapsing?

Post by Higgenbotham »

Bob Butler wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:22 pm
Higgenbotham wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:36 pm
The liberal welfare state is collapsing. In the big picture Trump was just another liberal. He spent copious amounts of money and ran up copious amounts of debt, just less than the far left liberals. A conservative position would have been to issue shoot to kill orders for illegals crossing the border, not fund a wall. Bullets are cheap. The individuals that emerge out of the coming anarchy, as Navigator suggests, will do that type of thing.
It is not America that collapses at the end of a crisis, it is the conservative faction. After each crisis, there was a focus during the high on economics and infrastructure, a boom. America thrives. But there were those who profited from flaws that ran into a civic generation. The civic generation's idea of what they would be like in the future did not include those flaws. Colonial imperialism, slavery and isolationism just went away. It was the conservative faction that collapsed. Lies, greed, racism, fixation on power, and forcing one’s culture on others are apt to follow.

This does not mean there won't be good things worth preserving in the next cycle, or that people who profit from the flaws won't try to keep them in the culture. But that's for the next civic generation. There are enough unsolved problems left in the culture that the S&H four score and seven year cycle is apt to continue. The next bunch of conservatives have generally not fought for what their predecessors fought for, but there has always been a no change faction in every crisis. They just happen to be losers.
Naturally, I don't agree with all of it, but Navigator's commentary is serious commentary. I put it up as a contrast so that those who may not have seen it or may have forgotten it could see it or be reminded.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

User avatar
Bob Butler
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:48 am
Location: East of the moon, west of the sun
Contact:

Serious Commentary

Post by Bob Butler »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:40 pm
Naturally, I don't agree with all of it, but Navigator's commentary is serious commentary. I put it up as a contrast so that those who may not have seen it or may have forgotten it could see it or be reminded.
Yes, it is a serious commentary. I’m not certain if it is valid however.

In the Agricultural Age it was possible to become more powerful and larger through conquest. You just have to be careful not to unite all your enemies against you, as people like Napoleon and Hitler discovered. These days, especially since World War II, containment policy has a lot of folks quite ready to unite against you. You have a few autocratic expansionist countries who think we are still in Charlemagne’s time, and more economic containment countries just daring them to try. Navigator seems to assume containment will fail, that World War III will reproduce a conquest happy environment. This is not clear. If Russia and China collapse as they seem to be doing, a containment happy environment may be quite different from the conquest happy one Navigator projects.

Also, once upon a time the dominant economic engine was the family farm. Naturally, family was important during that time. With the rise of factories, mobility and farmland owned by giant corporations, big government has taken over to a great extent the role of the family as driving the central economic unit. You can be nostalgic about the good old days, but those days are gone. The values of the good old days are still reverberating, their replacements not yet solid.

There is a valid concern about the increase in productivity. It takes fewer people less hours to keep things going. Government programs have had to somehow take up the slack, and some individuals take advantage. I suspect the answer is people working fewer hours a week and retiring sooner, but greed has pushed society in the opposite direction. The answer is certainly not a return to the family farm as the dominant economic unit, but the productivity problem hasn’t seemed to surface openly yet. People are not looking at things that way.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests