Health Care Bill

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richard5za
Posts: 893
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:29 am
Location: South Africa

Health Care Bill

Post by richard5za »

As a non American could someone please explain to me the generalised disquiet by many Americans on the recent Health Care Bill that went through Congress on 24 December.

Is it because they think that the poor don't deserve free health care? Or is it because there is financial manipulation / fraud of some sort in the way things are to be structured?

Regards
Richard

The Grey Badger
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by The Grey Badger »

For one thing, it's so complicated many people are worried about unexpected consequences. Other people are terrified of having what they see as the government controlling their health care. (Me, I'm afraid of anyone, public, private, or corporate, having a monopoly on such an important function, because if they screw you over, where else can you go? But that's not what's in the bill, I don't think.)

There's a small farmer in Alamogordo who looked at the mandate to buy insurance and blogged "If I have to pay this, I'll have to give up electricity." She's on that thin a margin.

Then there are people who are already worried sick out the amount of money the government is spending in hopes of getting us out of this recession.

Anything I've missed here? Besides the conspiracy theories?

richard5za
Posts: 893
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:29 am
Location: South Africa

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by richard5za »

Thanks for the explanation. I'm glad its not indifference to the poor.

Why not just set up basic health care clinics for the poor instead of something very complicated? So many other countries, especially developing countries have excellent working models. I wonder if the "complicated" has something to do with the generational phase?

Regards
Richard

The Grey Badger
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by The Grey Badger »

Don't ask me. I've been advocating the health care clinics and visiting nurse models for decades. Nobody's listening.

I think part of that problem is that you can't get health care personnel out there to staff those clinics. Why not? NOT because they're spoiled and demand a cushy city job. Rather because they are so deep in debt from student loans they have to have the highest-paying job they can get, to pay off those loans!

For which there is also a reasonable common-sense solution. In fact, it was a solution an entire, highly successful, TV series was built around, a comedy-drama called "Northern Exposure." Their new doctor's medical education was paid for by the people of the Alaskan village he's agreed to serve for a number of years. He's a city mouse in the country, which is where the comedy comes in.

richard5za
Posts: 893
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:29 am
Location: South Africa

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by richard5za »

Again as a non American might I suggest that this business of paying off student loans is a problem that really needs to be addressed. There really are people who want to do their "little bit" to make the world a better place. But they couldn't do so if burdened with student loan debt. Also there is the need to get married and have children and you can't do that if burdened with debt. One of my daughters in law is a lovely, lovely person who is a few months away from completing her specialisation in oncology. But the costs have been paid for by the state and she recieves a modest salary while working in a state hospital.

The real point is that she wants to always work in the public sector with the poorest of the poor, albeit that state salaries are a lot less that private sector health earnings. There are enough people on this planet like her to staff health care clinics for the poor.

Perhaps the best way of paying off student loans might be that each year of working for the state, once qualified, pays off one year of the loan? Otherwise you pay off the monetary amount. Its an American problem so I wish you good luck and many blessings.
Richard
Richard

Jack Edwards
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:47 pm

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by Jack Edwards »

Perhaps the best way of paying off student loans might be that each year of working for the state, once qualified, pays off one year of the loan? Otherwise you pay off the monetary amount. Its an American problem so I wish you good luck and many blessings.
I think you're missing the point. The problem is that the education itself is too expensive. We're in a viscious circle where it is very expensive to get advanced medical education. In order to retain instructors, they have to be paid on the level the would earn practicing medicine - this makes the education expensive. After the students graduate, they have to go earn a lot of money to pay off their bills. Having the goverment supplement this circle just makes everything more expensive. For years, the rate of increase in costs in medicine and college education has exceeded the rate of inflation. At some point a correction needs to occur (Stein's Law).

We need to find a way of making education less costly, with all the advances in information technology is astounds me that this hasn't been done yet.

I think we also need to reevaluate how educated someone needs to be to practice medicine. 90% of the time when I go to the doctor it's for something very simple to diagnose like a sinus infection - why should I have to pay to see a doctor for something like that? Even when I see a nurse practitioner instead - I haven't seen a decrease in costs.

A lot of this comes back to generational dynamics too. Education costs would not have risen so fast if people were unwilling to take on excessive debt. They would have figured out a way of keeping education costs down. It's become common for almost everyone to carry huge debt loads - and this is perceived as being normal. Folks like me who have no debt (and drive old ratty cars and live in old ratty houses) are viewed as being completely out of touch. We'll see.

Regards

Jack

John
Posts: 11478
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by John »

Dear Richard,
richard5za wrote: > As a non American could someone please explain to me the
> generalised disquiet by many Americans on the recent Health Care
> Bill that went through Congress on 24 December.

> Is it because they think that the poor don't deserve free health
> care? Or is it because there is financial manipulation / fraud of
> some sort in the way things are to be structured?
I've called it a "proposal of economic insanity" because it's nothing
more than a rationing plan. The way to solve the health care problem
is to increase the supply of health services -- more doctors, nurses,
equipment, etc. But the proposal punishes the health care industry by
forced price controls, and that's the recipe for economic disaster,
similar to what happened in the Nixon administration.

** Obama's health plan, a proposal of economic insanity, appears to be losing support
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 25#e090725


Here's a different view:
Yves Smith wrote:
> Top 10 Reasons to Kill Senate Health Care Bill
  1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance
    corporations — whether you want to or not.
  2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you’ll have to pay
    penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS.
  3. Many will be forced to buy poor-quality insurance they can’t
    afford to use, with $11,900 in annual out-of-pocket expenses over
    and above their annual premiums.
  4. Massive restriction on a woman’s right to choose, designed to
    trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court.
  5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have
    right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits
    and increase co-pays.
  6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most
    Americans won’t see any benefits — like an end to discrimination
    against those with preexisting conditions — until 2014 when the
    program begins.
  7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300%
    more than others.
  8. Grants monopolies to drug companies that will keep generic
    versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.
  9. No re-importation of prescription drugs, which would save
    consumers $100 billion over 10 years.
  10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance
    premiums for a family of four will rise an average of $1,000 a
    year — meaning in 10 years, your family’s insurance premium will
    be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/12/ ... -bill.html
If you go to the article, you'll find links that support each of the
ten reasons.

John

gerald
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by gerald »

John wrote:Dear Richard,
richard5za wrote: > As a non American could someone please explain to me the
> generalised disquiet by many Americans on the recent Health Care
> Bill that went through Congress on 24 December.

> Is it because they think that the poor don't deserve free health
> care? Or is it because there is financial manipulation / fraud of
> some sort in the way things are to be structured?
I've called it a "proposal of economic insanity" because it's nothing
more than a rationing plan. The way to solve the health care problem
is to increase the supply of health services -- more doctors, nurses,
equipment, etc. But the proposal punishes the health care industry by
forced price controls, and that's the recipe for economic disaster,
similar to what happened in the Nixon administration.

** Obama's health plan, a proposal of economic insanity, appears to be losing support
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 25#e090725


Here's a different view:
Yves Smith wrote:
> Top 10 Reasons to Kill Senate Health Care Bill
  1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance
    corporations — whether you want to or not.
  2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you’ll have to pay
    penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS.
  3. Many will be forced to buy poor-quality insurance they can’t
    afford to use, with $11,900 in annual out-of-pocket expenses over
    and above their annual premiums.
  4. Massive restriction on a woman’s right to choose, designed to
    trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court.
  5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have
    right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits
    and increase co-pays.
  6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most
    Americans won’t see any benefits — like an end to discrimination
    against those with preexisting conditions — until 2014 when the
    program begins.
  7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300%
    more than others.
  8. Grants monopolies to drug companies that will keep generic
    versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.
  9. No re-importation of prescription drugs, which would save
    consumers $100 billion over 10 years.
  10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance
    premiums for a family of four will rise an average of $1,000 a
    year — meaning in 10 years, your family’s insurance premium will
    be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/12/ ... -bill.html
If you go to the article, you'll find links that support each of the
ten reasons.

John

The above lists a long series of things as to why things may not change, and they deal with money and control. Too many depend on how things now work to allow a solution.
A nations health care costs should be around 3% to 4% or less, and we are talking about advanced top quality care.

Health care needs can basically be divided into four categories--

aging
injuries
disease
genetic dysfunctions

Much of the above can be minimized by taking appropriate actions but are not, for obvious reasons. Such as--

Taking personal responsibility for one's health, this includes lifestyle, diet and appropriate exercise -- this requires education.

The issue of diet is multifaceted and extremely important.

This requires education regarding the type of food we LIKE to eat and the QUALITY of the food we do eat.
Quality is determined by the way food is processed in restaurants and supermarkets, and HOW food is produced, this includes
the type of food, the mineral/ nutrient content of soil, and the contaminate level in the water of the growing medium. (land, lakes, rivers or seas)

A healthy environment and diet will minimize disease. Disease is generally an outward symptom of an internal imbalance or deficiency.
A healthy environment also means a lack of parasites, a major problem in the poor countries.

As for genetic dysfunctions, that is a difficult issue and it's cause I have hinted at in other posts.

richard5za
Posts: 893
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:29 am
Location: South Africa

Re: Health Care Bill

Post by richard5za »

Thank you to everyone for the time you took out to provide explanations. I am a lot better informed. It doesn't seem that the new health bill will stand the test of time.
Regards
Richard

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