24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Discussion of Web Log and Analysis topics from the Generational Dynamics web site.
FishbellykanakaDude
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

Tom Mazanec wrote:...
And as to the morality of suicide:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Positive and direct suicide perpetrated without God's consent always constitutes a grave injustice towards Him. To destroy a thing is to dispose of it as an absolute master and to act as one having full and independent dominion over it; but man does not possess this full and independent dominion over his life, since to be an owner one must be superior to his property. God has reserved to himself direct dominion over life; He is the owner of its substance and He has given man only the serviceable dominion, the right of use, with the charge of protecting and preserving the substance, that is, life itself. Consequently suicide is an attempt against the dominion and right of ownership of the Creator. To this injustice is added a serious offence against the charity which man owes to himself, since by his act he deprives himself of the greatest good in his possession and the possibility of attaining his final end. Moreover, the sin may be aggravated by circumstances, such as failure in conjugal, paternal, or filial piety, failure in justice or charity, if by taking his life one eludes existing obligations of justice or acts of charity, which he could and should perform. That suicide is unlawful is the teaching of Holy Scripture and of the Church, which condemns the act as a most atrocious crime and, in hatred of the sin and to arouse the horror of its children, denies the suicide Christian burial. Moreover, suicide is directly opposed to the most powerful and invincible tendency of every creature and especially of man, the preservation of life. Finally, for a sane man deliberately to take his own life, he must, as a general rule, first have annihilated in himself all that he possessed of spiritual life, since suicide is in absolute contradiction to everything that the Christian religion teaches us as to the end and object of life and, except in cases of insanity, is usually the natural termination of a life of disorder, weakness, and cowardice.
I completely agree with this "description" of the situation we might call the "attraction toward self-killing to avoid pain".

AND (accent on the "AND") we are also "allowed" (by God) to exercise our salient characteristic, which is free will.

My own opinion, as to the "damnation" dimension of suicide, is that since there is ALWAYS a time interval between the "commitment" to suicide and death, that the eternal (irrevocable) nature of the act NEARLY ALWAYS "shocks" the person (before actual death) into regret, and regret (in this context) is just another name for abject contrition, which is the only true requirement for forgiveness,.. thus initiating a rather "severe" form of "learning" that we call "purgatory".

That learning not learned is called "hell", and is "endless".

There are certainly many (way too many) persons whose "egos" (accumulated resentments) have devoured their "person-ness" ("soul") allowing them, via the gift of free will, to actively choose "non-regret" for that which should be regretted, and experience that for "eternity" (whatever that may come to mean for them).

So, I'm not a believer in the heresy of "the empty hell". (Or Annihilationism either, for that matter.)

The Church, as an institution, spiritual and temporal, is (rightly) "in the business" of not encouraging bad stuff, and in general, suicide is "bad stuff". Murder is also not encouraged. Killing is slightly less not encouraged. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

Doing "irrevocable final pain relief" without the necessary active groundwork greatly increases the probability that regret will ensue when the stakes are the highest.

No one talks anyone out of suicide. The awareness of how thoroughly one has prepared for death eventually comes to us all.

The "attraction toward suicide" is a very good sign that thought and work need to be done to avoid results we really don't want.


(God does not condemn. We do. That is the answer to the question of evil. Material imperfection and free will allows for evil. Material imperfection was "asked for" by "life" so as to learn, and granted. Free will was the [necessary] "price" for the ability to learn.)

Higgenbotham
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by Higgenbotham »

Tom Mazanec wrote: And as to the morality of suicide:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Positive and direct suicide perpetrated without God's consent always constitutes a grave injustice towards Him. To destroy a thing is to dispose of it as an absolute master and to act as one having full and independent dominion over it; but man does not possess this full and independent dominion over his life, since to be an owner one must be superior to his property. God has reserved to himself direct dominion over life; He is the owner of its substance and He has given man only the serviceable dominion, the right of use, with the charge of protecting and preserving the substance, that is, life itself. Consequently suicide is an attempt against the dominion and right of ownership of the Creator. To this injustice is added a serious offence against the charity which man owes to himself, since by his act he deprives himself of the greatest good in his possession and the possibility of attaining his final end. Moreover, the sin may be aggravated by circumstances, such as failure in conjugal, paternal, or filial piety, failure in justice or charity, if by taking his life one eludes existing obligations of justice or acts of charity, which he could and should perform. That suicide is unlawful is the teaching of Holy Scripture and of the Church, which condemns the act as a most atrocious crime and, in hatred of the sin and to arouse the horror of its children, denies the suicide Christian burial. Moreover, suicide is directly opposed to the most powerful and invincible tendency of every creature and especially of man, the preservation of life. Finally, for a sane man deliberately to take his own life, he must, as a general rule, first have annihilated in himself all that he possessed of spiritual life, since suicide is in absolute contradiction to everything that the Christian religion teaches us as to the end and object of life and, except in cases of insanity, is usually the natural termination of a life of disorder, weakness, and cowardice.
What does your Catholic Encylopedia have to say about this:

'No more pain' victim wrote of Pa. priest sex abuse, as he and others took their own lives

Sam Ruland, York Daily Record Published 11:41 a.m. ET Aug. 21, 2018 | Updated 11:54 a.m. ET Aug. 21, 2018


In a detailed letter to the Diocese of Pittsburgh, a man outlined the extensive abuse he endured at the hands of a priest while serving as an altar boy in his hometown parish.

He classified his experiences as sexual, physical and emotional abuse — memories that plagued his mind for years, and ones he certainly couldn't escape.

The details recounted in his case, contained in last week's release of the Pennsylvania grand jury report on priest sex abuse, are graphic, describing situations involving anal and oral sex.

Through tears, he cried out, "No Father," as the Rev. Richard Dorsch held the victim's hand firm around the priest's genitals. And the other assaults were similar, just as intensely damaging, as the victim described.

When confronted with the allegations, Dorsch did not deny them. He did not act as though the name of the victim was one he didn't recognize.

Rather, he acknowledged the abuse — somewhat. He said he was "inappropriate with the victim." By Google standards, "inappropriate" is simply defined as "not suitable or proper in the circumstances."

More: List: Names, details of 301 Pa. priest sex abuse allegations in Catholic dioceses

More: Clergy abuse survivors 'tired of talk,' stand outside diocese, demand action

There was nothing simple about this abuse though.

The diocese began paying for the victim's mental health treatment in July 2008, one month after he attempted suicide.

He documented how he felt during those desperate moments:

“Early in the summer this year — in fact, it was the day of the summer solstice itself— I attempted to take my own life. It happened in the wee hours of the morning following a night of heavy drink, which my doctors have explained may have induced an inescapable episodic flashback of sexual abuse, which has haunted me over the years. This time, however, the pain of that flashback I couldn't stand any longer, and decided that enough was enough. No more pain I thought as I swallowed dozens of pills.”

Almost two years later, in March 2010, the diocese told the victim they would no longer pay for his mental health treatment. A reason or explanation was not given in the grand jury report. It is not certain if the victim was given one himself.

But what is certain is that the victim took his own life two months later.

And while his story is tragic, it's not the only one of its kind. The grand jury report documents 12 other priests whose victims either attempted suicide or died by suicide. One instance involves the priest himself, who died by suicide, claiming he also was a victim of abuse.
https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/08/ ... 042459002/
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

FishbellykanakaDude
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Tom Mazanec wrote: And as to the morality of suicide:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Positive and direct suicide perpetrated without...
What does your Catholic Ency[c]lopedia have to say about this:

'No more pain' victim wrote of Pa. priest sex abuse, as he and others took their own lives...
It says "sin is bad and has awful consequences" (paraphrased), which appears to be borne out quite well by what happened in this case.

What would you like it to say, Higgs?

Higgenbotham
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by Higgenbotham »

FishbellykanakaDude wrote:
Higgenbotham wrote:
Tom Mazanec wrote: And as to the morality of suicide:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Positive and direct suicide perpetrated without...
What does your Catholic Ency[c]lopedia have to say about this:

'No more pain' victim wrote of Pa. priest sex abuse, as he and others took their own lives...
It says "sin is bad and has awful consequences" (paraphrased), which appears to be borne out quite well by what happened in this case.

What would you like it to say, Higgs?
So it says the kids who were molested by their Catholic priests and committed suicide because of the molestation they received in the Catholic church are sinners? Were they supposed to hang around so their priests could continue to molest them? Does the Catholic Encyclopedia address that?
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

John
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by John »

Catholic Encyclopedia on Suicide

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm

Higgenbotham
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by Higgenbotham »

John wrote:Catholic Encyclopedia on Suicide

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm
It doesn't seem that the Catholic Encyclopedia addresses the suicides that occur as a result of Catholic priests molesting boys in the church. They should be directly addressing that issue in all of their writings (that pertain).

To expand on that a bit, let's say, without knowing the history of what happens in the Catholic church, someone unknowingly takes their young son to a Catholic church and he gets molested by a priest and commits suicide due to the molestation. The parent may not even know it has been occurring (I think in many cases they don't). Now, according to the same church someone took their young son to, he is damned to hell because he committed suicide due to the fact that the parent unknowingly took him to the very place that caused him to be damned to hell. It really doesn't make much sense to me.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.

FishbellykanakaDude
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

Higgenbotham wrote:
FishbellykanakaDude wrote:
Higgenbotham wrote: What does your Catholic Ency[c]lopedia have to say about this:
It says "sin is bad and has awful consequences" (paraphrased), which appears to be borne out quite well by what happened in this case.

What would you like it to say, Higgs?
So it says the kids who were molested by their Catholic priests and committed suicide because of the molestation they received in the Catholic church are sinners?
To commit suicide is a sin. Period. But between committing to doing suicide and the realization that dying was not what you really wanted, because what you really wanted was "simply" the cessation of pain, there is time enough to be regretful of the irrevocable choice of self-murder.

That regret absolves them of their eternity being spent in "hell".

If they felt only relief during this "time for regret" then they are truly "insane" (meaning fully occupied by inappropriate things) and not responsible for the sin of suicide, for which they will not hold themselves damnable to their "hell". Their time for regret and forgiveness will eventually come.
Were they supposed to hang around so their priests could continue to molest them? Does the Catholic Encyclopedia address that?
What do you mean by "hang around"? What do you mean by "supposed to"?

As free will imbued people we are free to come and go, fight or flee, complain or conceal, as best we can or want to.

I'm going to assume that they chose to do what was most "sensible" to them. There's no changing that which happened in the past, so "should have done's" are irrelevant.

The questions are: What should parents communicate to their children about "authority figures", and what should the temporal punishments be for criminal acts by authority figures upon children?

The results of sin are to be learned from, so that those (evil) results can be lessened in the world.

FishbellykanakaDude
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by FishbellykanakaDude »

Higgenbotham wrote:
John wrote:Catholic Encyclopedia on Suicide

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm
It doesn't seem that the Catholic Encyclopedia addresses the suicides that occur as a result of Catholic priests molesting boys in the church. They should be directly addressing that issue in all of their writings (that pertain).

To expand on that a bit, let's say, without knowing the history of what happens in the Catholic church, someone unknowingly takes their young son to a Catholic church and he gets molested by a priest and commits suicide due to the molestation.

The parent may not even know it has been occurring (I think in many cases they don't). Now, according to the same church someone took their young son to, he is damned to hell because he committed suicide due to the fact that the parent unknowingly took him to the very place that caused him to be damned to hell. It really doesn't make much sense to me.
The Church (and common sense) is quite clear.

Committing evil is not to be done. Contributing to the suicide of another is evil. Evil must be punished by the temporal authorities. Hampering that punishment is a sin, an evil, and a crime.

That "principle" is universally applicable,.. to all institutions and individuals.

shoshin
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by shoshin »

Where is Chirstopher Hitchens when you need him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYrVh1I-E_E



The Catholic Church has ZERO moral standing (priests raped nuns, forced them to have abortions).

I would rather you didn't kill yourself, John, as I like having you around, but that's selfish, isnt it?

Do what you want, it's your life.

John
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Re: 24-Dec-18 World View -- Generational Dynamics analysis of the troop withdrawal from Syria

Post by John »

** 02-Apr-2019 Catholic Encyclopedia on Suicide
John wrote: > Catholic Encyclopedia on Suicide

> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm
FishbellykanakaDude wrote: > To commit suicide is a sin. Period.
Wow! You seem to have it all figured out, don't you. Since
the Bible doesn't prohibit suicide, I assume you're just one of
the sheep following the rant in the Catholic Encyclopedia, or similar
rants elsewhere.

So I guess you've also decided that a person with cancer who
refuses treatment is also a sinner. Or a person who signs a
DNR so that his parents won't have to suffer through months
of pain is also a major sinner.

But there's a more fundamental issue. The Catholic Encyclopedia rant
says: "Positive and direct suicide perpetrated without God's consent
always constitutes a grave injustice towards Him."

So when you condemn someone for committing suicide, you're taking on
the role of God himself, by claiming to know whether God gave his
consent. A person committing suicide may have good reason to believe
that God gave consent, and has no obligation whatsoever to provide you
with the reasons behind that belief. So unless you claim to be
speaking for God, then you have no right to pass judgment.

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