John wrote:** 02-Apr-2019 #2 Catholic Encyclopedia on Suicide
FishbellykanakaDude wrote:> Well, since we're all sinners, that's rather a distinction without
> a difference.
You can characterize it as you wish, of course, but my point was that committing a sin is not equivalent to being damned to hell.
I ate too much chocolate, so I'm a (gluttonous) sinner.
I refused life saving treatment, so I'm a (non-gluttonous) sinner.
I authorized a DNR for another person, so I'm a (still non-gluttonous) sinner.
Sin is sin, and will need to be dealt with at some point,.. and the only difference between ALL the various sins is the "proposed" (meaning: "guestimated") severity of the "regret" that the sinner will have to deal with when that time comes.
FishbellykanakaDude wrote:> Taking treatment (for cancer) is not a guarantee that life will be
> saved, therefore refusing treatment is not a sin, per se.
Total copout. Jumping off a building is not a guarantee that you'll
be killed, so according to you it's not a sin. In fact, applying your
reasoning, almost nothing is a sin, since you almost never predict the
consequences of your actions with 100% mathematical certainty.
I'm not gonna argue with your use of the word "copout", as it's neither here nor there as far as this conversation is concerned.
So, to your point that "sin" is a very "fuzzy" term. I agree wholeheartedly.
It's not my (or anyone's) job to definitively call people sinners. That's not the "important part". The important part is that a general principle be recognizable as a possible signal of "error", so that "error correction" might become more probable, if that's appropriate.
Sorry for the "fuzzy words" there. It's necessary to use them because it's very fuzzy subject.
There are NO hard and fast (or mathematical) rules when it comes to this "sin" business. But it is possible to find general principles.
"Unnecessarily" ending life is GENERALLY not a good thing. Any "unnecessary" not-good-thing is a sin. That's what "sin" means.
..but there may be mitigating circumstances that can be convincing that the unnecessary is necessary, at least at the time.
That is why sin is forgivable. And will always BE forgiven as long as the ego (accumulated self accepted "demons") has not made self-forgiveness, otherwise known as heartfelt regret, impossible.
FishbellykanakaDude wrote:> Firstly, to believe one knows God consented to ANYTHING is the
> same sin as believing one knows the mind of God, which we've
> established is a no-no.
Well, first off, that means that the entire "God's consent" part of
the Catholic Encyclopedia rant on suicide is meaningless, and since
the entire rant hinges on consent, that makes the entire rant
meaningless, according to you.
It IS meaningless as a formula to definitively assign guilt or innocence. (Let that soak in for a while!)
The "rant", as you put it, is for recognizing where people may incur "future regret", so that they can be prepared to deal with it eventually.
Second, I've known many people who pray every day and believe that
they receive signs from God.
Everyone receives signals (signs) from God. But signals are different from "getting God's consent".
Getting a definitive "agreement" (consent) from God is merely wishful egomaniacal thinking. That's my opinion, and it has exactly ZERO value to everyone other than myself. Unless someone else believes as I do, of course.
No one has ever told me that he received
a sign that he can commit suicide, but it's certainly plausible.
I'm sure if you checked closely that very many suicides "knew" perfectly well that God had given them His consent to murder themselves, "disguised" as to "kill themselves", further disguised as to "relieve their pain".
But that is completely irrelevant, because the only thing that matters is whether the dying choose to forgive themselves of whatever "regrettable stuff" they've done, or not.
All I know, for certain, is that it's not my job to condemn anyone.
Furthermore, if you go back to the Catholic Encyclopedia, you'll see
that it seems to excuse suicide in some cases, e.g., when someone is
"impelled by the desire of martyrdom." By the way, Muslim jihadists
will be happy to hear that.
The Church is an institution that exists in, and has to "deal with", the temporal human world, and is composed of human persons.
That means it's susceptible to the same "egomaniacal" (demonic, or "obsession with the inappropriate") forces that any other group of humans are.
Putting yourself in danger to try to minimize the suffering of others is charity (caritas).
Ending your own life before that is necessary is "non-optimal", and God really loves optimizing that which should be optimized, but nobody knows what actually IS optimal, so we all do our best to achieve what we imagine we think might be God's optimization,.. or we actively don't,.. which is called doing evil.
There is only one mortal sin. The sin of final non-regret of that which we should be regretful.
That, and only that, has you sending yourself to hell.
But none of that is my job, nor anyone else's.