President Barack Obama

The interplay of politics and the media with music and culture
John
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Re: President Barack Obama

Post by John »

Ridgel wrote: > John, you said "Today, the country is almost just waiting for a
> "regeneracy event." It might be a terrorist attack on American
> soil, or it might be an overseas military disaster. But whatever
> it is, it will end the bickering, and regenerate civic unity
> again. "

> But based on my understanding of what you've written before, it's
> going to take a lot more than another 9/11. There's going to have
> to be some sort of total war or other catastrophe to get people to
> change their ways. If another terrorist attack happened today,
> even a serious one that killed thousands of people, it would do
> nothing to unify the country. The right would say that Obama was
> weak on foreign policy, the left would say that the U.S. had
> angered other countries with its occupations, the military
> contractors would lobby for more homeland security money, the
> justice department would write memos for or against torture-light
> depending on who was in charge - it would still be every man for
> himself.

> A war with China or another major power would certainly unify the
> country fast. But I can't picture how you fight a total war with
> nuclear weapons on both sides - without using the nukes that is.
> And even to this Gen-Xer nihilist who looks forward to seeing
> boomers spend their retirements eating cat food and shivering in
> studio apartments without cable, that goes to far. ...

> But based observation of our public servants, I think any war will
> be more motivated by greed and interest than by pride. For
> example, the U.S. spy plane that was forced down and landed on a
> Chinese Island in 2001. There was no threat of military response
> or sanctions - just BS give China whatever it wants, let them hold
> our people and steal our secrets for a week. Those aren't total
> war kind of people. They're the kind that will continue to weasel
> and compromise and kick the can down the road until something
> forces their hand.
I really think that you're overlooking the possibility of panic, a
concept that's fundamental to Generational Dynamics theory.

The 2001 incident with China is interesting, but it's not the kind of
thing that would be likely to stimulate panic. In fact, that
incident made the Chinese look like complete fools, since the Chinese
pilots were acting like 5 year olds, and ended up getting killed,
while the US plane landed safely, albeit on Chinese territory.

However, let's look at another example. In fact, let's look at 9/11
itself. You may recall that President Bush declared war on
Afghanistan immediately -- with no complaints from anyone. In fact,
the war in Afghanistan is still described as the "good war" or the
"necessary war," even by Obama. 9/11 DID in fact unify the US
population.

Now imagine that Osama bin Laden had been hiding out in, say, the
Uighur region of China, rather than Afghanistan. Then a world war
might well have been triggered at that time.

So I would argue that 9/11 COULD HAVE led to war if only the facts
had been slightly different.

Now imagine a new terrorist act on American soil, and imagine that
the facts point to Pakistan or China or North Korea. Then things
might move very quickly.

The Christmas day attempted bombing was a failure, and yet we're now
moving troops into Yemen, as I described in my posting.

** 28-Jan-10 News - US military in Yemen, investors bet against Greece
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 28#e100128


That was an unsuccessful act, but it still provoked a fairly
significant military reponse. Imagine if it had been successful.

John

John
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Re: President Barack Obama

Post by John »

xakzen wrote: > As far as genX nihilists' willingness to use nukes, I disagree. I
> know many people in my generation who were raised with this moral
> relativism to the point that you cannot even argue with them that
> there is a difference between the US government and that of Adolf
> Hitler's or Joseph Stalin's. No matter how many facts concerning
> the brutality and shear magnitude of their atrocities. One friend
> of mine is even looking forward to a global "reset." Though he
> doesn't really explain what that means, when probed about it, he
> gives some naive response about equitable re-distribution of
> assets. Further prodding confirms he doesn't mean anything should
> be taken from himself only others.
This is a very interesting statement. Your friend's attitude does
indeed encapsulate the nihilism of Generation-X.

Here's something that I wrote two years ago, in response to a web
site reader's e-mail comment:
John wrote: > I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings, but what you and other
> Gen-Xers don't understand is that, as bad as Boomers are, Gen-Xers
> are worse. You think you'll be cleaning up after our mistakes, but
> you'll actually be making one huge blunder after another.
> Motivated by fury and anger at Boomers for doing nothing, you'll
> rush in to "do something", and the things you do will be
> disastrous -- lead to world war, lead to financial disaster. Your
> generation's utter contempt for everything that came before you,
> and your recklessly eager willingness to destroy it, will backfire
> on you and lead you to desperation and self-destruction. We're
> already seeing that with the disastrous results of the "financial
> engineering" that was implemented by Xers under the nose of
> Boomers. If you even survive the next 10 years, you'll come out of
> it bitter and angry. And it won't be the Boomers who'll be blamed
> or remembered for these disasters. You'll be blamed.
** The nihilism and self-destructiveness of Generation X
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... c#e080121c


John

xakzen
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:59 am

Re: President Barack Obama

Post by xakzen »

John wrote: This is a very interesting statement. Your friend's attitude does
indeed encapsulate the nihilism of Generation-X.
I very rarely talk in generalities especially concerning people because it is so easy to be misconstrued. In fact, I now believe this to be a part of the Gen-X character if not the Nomad Archetype in general I cannot say. Having been raised in the aftermath of the Civil Rights Movement, we were taught that discrimination of any kind is wrong. I believe that for the most part we are the first generation to be truly without bias regarding race, gender, disability, ethnicity, etc. Unfortunately this attitude has also rendered most people in this generation unable to make distinctions of any kind and those that can are afraid to point out the obvious.

I have to admit that I was skeptical of your assessment of Gen-X when I first encountered your website, but it was when I first heard this friend express these same sentiments you have railed against that cause me to re-evaluate the attitudes of others in my generation. Of course it pains me to hear that my generation has, is, and will be the cause of such destruction and callous disregard for our fellow human beings, but I also recognize that it is in the character of my generation to not identify with my generation {Strauss & Howe, "13th Gen: Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail?"}. I do appreciate when you acknowledge that not all Gen Xers are greedy self-absorbed pricks and I understand that when you do you detract from your central point so recognize that you don't have to do it every time.

I do take comfort in the fact that some of my heroes were Nomads like: George Patton, George Washington and my maternal grandfather. I don't think we will see our comparable heroes in this generation until well into the crisis war but only after we see more George McClellans.

John
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Re: President Barack Obama

Post by John »

xakzen wrote: > I do take comfort in the fact that some of my heroes were Nomads
> like: George Patton, George Washington and my maternal
> grandfather. I don't think we will see our comparable heroes in
> this generation until well into the crisis war but only after we
> see more George McClellans.
The world today belongs to Generation-X.

The villains will be Gen-Xers.

The heroes will be Gen-Xers.

All that we Boomers can do is sit back, watch, and hope for the best.

Sincerely,

John

gerald
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: President Barack Obama

Post by gerald »

John wrote:
xakzen wrote: > I do take comfort in the fact that some of my heroes were Nomads
> like: George Patton, George Washington and my maternal
> grandfather. I don't think we will see our comparable heroes in
> this generation until well into the crisis war but only after we
> see more George McClellans.
The world today belongs to Generation-X.

The villains will be Gen-Xers.

The heroes will be Gen-Xers.

All that we Boomers can do is sit back, watch, and hope for the best.

Sincerely,

John
"sit back and watch" ??

John:
I disagree, in history there are mentions of the named and unnamed "old ones" ( those who provide council ) to those in power.
We may not be "known" but depending on events, can alter " the flow of events", sometimes in strange ways.

Gerald

John
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Re: President Barack Obama

Post by John »

Dear Gerald,
gerald wrote: > "sit back and watch" ??

> John: I disagree, in history there are mentions of the named and
> unnamed "old ones" ( those who provide council ) to those in
> power. We may not be "known" but depending on events, can alter "
> the flow of events", sometimes in strange ways.
Heh, yes Gerald, we can impart our wonderful wisdom and counsel, but
who's going to listen?

John

gerald
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: President Barack Obama

Post by gerald »

John wrote:Dear Gerald,
gerald wrote: > "sit back and watch" ??

> John: I disagree, in history there are mentions of the named and
> unnamed "old ones" ( those who provide council ) to those in
> power. We may not be "known" but depending on events, can alter "
> the flow of events", sometimes in strange ways.
Heh, yes Gerald, we can impart our wonderful wisdom and counsel, but
who's going to listen?

John
Maybe one in a blue moon?

gerald
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: President Barack Obama

Post by gerald »

John:
Regarding the idea of a US "regeneracy" event causing the people to come together, I was thinking, it could evolve differently.
As an example, a what if. Currently there exists a fair amount of building anger and hostility toward the concept of "politically correct" and not calling "a spade a spade".
Suppose we experience another or worse 9/11 event, and learn it could have been prevented, if we did NOT practice "political correctness". Would those that did not believe or accept PC thinking then attack those that did support PC thinking? After all, there was a simmering hostility in thinking between those that supported and those that were against the Czar, leading up to the Russian revolution. That revolution appears to have been finally triggered by the First World War. And after all, seemingly silly things can trigger civil war like actions, such as the Nika riots (civil war) of 532 AD Constantinople, which caused the deaths of approximately 30,000. It started over chariot races, between the Blues and the Greens. hmmmm

Marshall Kane
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:53 pm

Re: President Barack Obama

Post by Marshall Kane »

[quote]xakzen wrote:
> I do take comfort in the fact that some of my heroes were Nomads
> like: George Patton, George Washington and my maternal
> grandfather. I don't think we will see our comparable heroes in
> this generation until well into the crisis war but only after we
> see more George McClellans.[/quote

Exactly, xakzen. As John has noted many times, these generational types are generalizations of the masses of people and there are exceptions to even the most accurate generalizations. The nomad heroes you cite point to the roles that some Gen Xers are going to play in the coming years. In fact, it may be the widespread depravity within a nomad generation that enables such unlikely heroes to emerge. Members of a hero generation are practical, non-judgmental and tired of the silly divisions of their prophet and nomand elders. They're mature enough to know they need leadership, but they've been largely abandoned by those who came before; thus, they are desperately looking for leaders who are authentic, trustworthy and - if possible - visionary. The key is that trust, not perfection, is key and when they do find a talented and trustworthy leader/role model they'll tolerate imperfections and even look beyond substantial mistakes (basically the opposite inclination of their parents). Look at the great nomad generals like Patton, Grant and Sherman. These were guys all military geniuses, but they never would have been given the chance to lead if not for the precise generational circumstance of a risk taking wartime prophet president and the endearment of young gung-ho hero generation troops who were willing to put their lives on the line for the right man. Washington had his own nomad issues, but his response was a personal battle against his imperfections and, thus, his controlled stoic presence. Still, his authenticity earned the undying loyalty of his troops - despite his imperfections as well as the horrid fighting conditions.

McClellan is a nice example of the negative side of the Heroes loyalty to flawed heroes. Lincoln's biggest obstacle to removing him from command was the fierce loyalty McClellan inspired in his troops, despite his incompetence. Apparently there was even some concern that if McClellan gave the order they would have followed their general across the Potomac (or, if you will, Rubicon) and take over the White House. Alas, we nomads also share a type with the 20th centuries most captivating mass murderers: Hitler, Mao and Stalin (unless Stalin was a late prophet?). As John noted above - Xers will be the heroes and the villains.

I do think this authenticity issue is important, particularly as we watch President Obama's efforts to regain his momentum. Its not a good sign for him that even some critics on the left are contributing to the narrative associating Obama with shady "Chicago style" political dealings, broken promises, double talk or arrogance. If Millenials embrace the perception of him as a phony then I don't see how he recovers.

This brings up an interesting question: can a true regeneracy take in the absence of a credible leader to rally around? Now, I could see the nation rallying around a less then inspiring leader, or even failed lame duck leader. For example, not many were particularly inspired by the idea of either Bush as a wartime leader before the time came, and I expect most Democrats would still have rallied around even lame duck GW Bush circa 2007-08; just as - most - Republicans rallied around FDR and would still have rallied around Clinton in '99 or Obama today. But suppose a regeneracy event occurred during the term of a completely discredited leader - someone who was simply not trusted, or even just seen as completely unqualified? Say, something hit during an unraveling and the public viewed a president as they did right before his resignation? Or LBJ in the summer of '68? The best real example I can think of are the lousy pre-Civil War presidents essentially holding off the war, but the Civil War in general may be too unique a situation to generalize from, since it could be said that the South had no need to rebel against a dough-face like Buchanan or Pierce.

Centuron
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Re: President Barack Obama

Post by Centuron »

Marshall Kane wrote: This brings up an interesting question: can a true regeneracy take in the absence of a credible leader to rally around?
My first reaction is to ask what your definition of credible is. Would that mean charismatic? Honest? Perceived as doing good? Having actual past leadership experience?

John often mentions crises being like natural disasters, in that, because they are instigated and carried by great masses of people, they cannot be stopped by the presence or absence of an individual or even a few. I figure a regeneracy is the same. A regeneracy is a fear-based reaction to an event that people perceive as threatening to society. In this way, people are like animals in that they will panic and "stampede" as it were, regardless of what leaders are present (herd mentality).

As far as who they rally around post-regeneracy, the person who gets the role will be the one the masses believe will and/or has done something about it for them. That will be the main credential. 9/11 was interesting in that it seemed like a regeneracy dress rehearsal. The president reacted in a doer fashion (invasion) and the people in general backed him. The credibility of the events have since been debated, but it showed that people will rally around someone who acts. If such a leader isn't visible already, the people will "appoint" one. It may not even be the president (George Washington and Robert E. Lee, for example, were generals, as were many leaders before they became official heads of states). Overall credibility may not be a concern, for as you said, "they'll tolerate imperfections and even look beyond substantial mistakes." I wouldn't personally consider Joseph Stalin or Adolph Hitler as particularly credible people, and the example of George McClellan shows they can be downright incompetent. As long as the people believe they will lead and do what needs to be done for them, the people will rally.

You're right in that I definitely sense a kind of itchiness to do something among my Millennial peers. My political science professor mentioned the Constitutional obligation of the people to remove an incompetent government and replace it, and a number of the students asked why no one had done so already. It seemed that many of them would be ready and willing to clean house if they had a more promising alternative. Obama isn't necessarily out of the running yet, but his crash with reality has cost him, and his coming actions will make or break him.
I've no doubt, though, that people will rally around someone come the regeneracy, whether they are already onstage or are hoisted there by the masses. We just have to hope that the person who does rise out of the regeneracy is of the credible sort.

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