Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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jdcpapa
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Re: Somebody has a mental disorder...

Post by jdcpapa »

Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:23 am
jdcpapa wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:51 am
Bob Butler wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:03 pm
I suppose I ought to address the other half of the Cow’s post. By far most Americans believe sentients should not be killed under ordinary circumstances. (Exceptions like war and some criminals are not relevant?) Some believe a group of cells which mightsomeday develop into sentients should not be killed. There is a distinct difference.
spottybrowncow draws that distinction: "babies able to survive outside of the womb"
He might have, but I did not. There seems to be an agreement that sentients should not be killed. A baby that could survive outside the womb is close enough to being sentient that I don't know of anyone that is pursuing it.

So, is it unreasonable to conclude that you are leaning towards an agreement with spottybrowncow in that regard? In that sense, your statement to follow would not apply on moral grounds.
Bob Butler wrote:The question is whether the latter should enforce their belief on others who do not share it.

Bob Butler wrote:If you believe in the freedom to make one’s own moral choices, you believe in choice. If you are into a totalitarian government enforcement of your own beliefes on others, you don’t.

Is it that simple?
jdcpapa wrote:Like this?

Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor allowed New York City to enforce its mandate that all municipal workers be vaccinated against COVID-19, against a police detective who challenged the public health policy on moral grounds.
Bob Butler wrote:There is a point that sentients should not be killed. It is one of the few points there is agreement on. If a police detective wants to kill people, he should properly be parted from the state.
The detective believes that the vaccine is not a preventative. Those individuals who are vaccinated can contract and transmit covid. He has corroborating evidence in support of that belief.

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Bob Butler
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Thou Shalt Not Kill...

Post by Bob Butler »

jdcpapa wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:48 pm
So, is it unreasonable to conclude that you are leaning towards an agreement with spottybrowncow in that regard? In that sense, your statement to follow would not apply on moral grounds.
I know of no faction that wants abortions of babies that could survive outside the womb. Certainly I don't. Cow just made that up.
jdcpapa wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:48 pm
The detective believes that the vaccine is not a preventative. Those individuals who are vaccinated can contract and transmit covid. He has corroborating evidence in support of that belief.
Individuals seldom if ever override government policies.

In the early days of Covid, it seems Trump decided if the economy stayed healthy he would be reelected. Thus, he prioritized economic factors over human lives. That is just the way he is. For him, money is more important than people. This morphed into being morally required to kill people. Factories were allowed not to protect workers. As the administration did not set up isolation, the only tool available early, the states did. As I stated earlier, the Ten Commandments contain a few values that are nigh on universal, found in all cultures. Thou shalt not kill, steal or commit adultery. If the state wishes to work towards that first goal, the courts are not going to stop it. Individuals do not decide they just don't feel like following the law.

The oddity is that many Republicans did attempt to kill. The detective in question is a case in point. It became the proper political and sorta moral thing to do to not take precautions to help preserve lives. This seemed exaggerated once the vaccines started coming out. Ending Covid would have helped the economy, but by that time it became a Republican thing to do to put others at lethal risk. A point was made to both risk lives and hurt the economy.

So when in the abortion debate it is presented that lives should be protected, color me dubious. Republicans killed to make a political point. Consistency in considering life important would be nice.

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Tom Mazanec
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Tom Mazanec »

I have had four shots so far.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

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Bob Butler
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A Progressive Edge come the Crisis...

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Tom Mazanec wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:08 am
I have had four shots so far.
Good for you. I've only had the three...

But I'm noting a drift away from Trump and MAGA. Does anyone think Covid was handled well? Does anyone anymore believe the Big Lie? Anyone think that there will be riots in the street if Tump is indicted for what he did do? The only followers that dedicated are already entangled in January 6 charges. If the Democrats want to pass bills that are popular with the voters, does anyone think voting against that as a block is a winning strategy? Even on abortion, is going against the will of the voters a good idea? Can you go with gerrymandering and making it hard to vote forever?

If people are determined to shoot themselves in the foot, why not correct their aim?

While this place is conservative enough, there are thinkers here and no obsession with the MAGA policies.

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Re: A Progressive Edge come the Crisis...

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Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:32 am
Tom Mazanec wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:08 am
I have had four shots so far.
Good for you. I've only had the three...

But I'm noting a drift away from Trump and MAGA. Does anyone think Covid was handled well? Does anyone anymore believe the Big Lie? Anyone think that there will be riots in the street if Tump is indicted for what he did do? The only followers that dedicated are already entangled in January 6 charges. If the Democrats want to pass bills that are popular with the voters, does anyone think voting against that as a block is a winning strategy? Even on abortion, is going against the will of the voters a good idea? Can you go with gerrymandering and making it hard to vote forever?

If people are determined to shoot themselves in the foot, why not correct their aim?

While this place is conservative enough, there are thinkers here and no obsession with the MAGA policies.
There are 74 million fascists who disagree with you.

jdcpapa
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Re: Thou Shalt Not Kill...

Post by jdcpapa »

Bob Butler wrote:Some believe a group of cells which might someday develop into sentients should not be killed. There is a distinct difference.
jdcpapa wrote:spottybrowncow draws that distinction: "babies able to survive outside of the womb"
Bob Butler wrote:He might have, but I did not.
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:50 am
I know of no faction that wants abortions of babies that could survive outside the womb. Certainly I don't.
Thanks, for drawing your distinction.

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Bob Butler
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Re: A Progressive Edge come the Crisis...

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:55 am
Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:32 am
While this place is conservative enough, there are thinkers here and no obsession with the MAGA policies.
There are 74 million fascists who disagree with you.
But are you one of them? Generally, by the high the progressive faction that wins the crisis is sitting on the conservatives, but we haven't gone through the never again and lessons learned phase. We are getting close. The next president that considers himself above the law is apt to get sat on hard, but the precedents have not yet been set. Working on it.

After the revolution, the losing conservatives moved To Canada. After the Civil War they created the KKK. After FDR they tried to become more in favor of containment than the progressives. What do you plan this time?

I know that at one time you were a Big Lie fan. I figured that if any evidence existed that would stick they would have presented it, so let the silence and the courts speak for themselves. Barr's opinion just before the insurrection was pretty firm. Are you still waiting for the imaginary evidence to materialize?

And I doubt the 74 million exist any more. The surge in Democratic votes has to come from somewhere.

jdcpapa
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Re: A Progressive Edge come the Crisis...

Post by jdcpapa »

Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:50 pm
The surge in Democratic votes has to come from somewhere.
I have been unable to find a cite in support of a democrat vote surge. Please provide a cite. Here is what I have found:

More than 1 million voters switch to GOP, raising alarm for Democrats

Politics Jun 27, 2022 4:30 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — A political shift is beginning to take hold across the U.S. as tens of thousands of suburban swing voters who helped fuel the Democratic Party’s gains in recent years are becoming Republicans.

More than 1 million voters across 43 states have switched to the Republican Party over the last year, according to voter registration data analyzed by The Associated Press. The previously unreported number reflects a phenomenon that is playing out in virtually every region of the country — Democratic and Republican states along with cities and small towns — in the period since President Joe Biden replaced former President Donald Trump.

But nowhere is the shift more pronounced — and dangerous for Democrats — than in the suburbs, where well-educated swing voters who turned against Trump’s Republican Party in recent years appear to be swinging back. Over the last year, far more people are switching to the GOP across suburban counties from Denver to Atlanta and Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Republicans also gained ground in counties around medium-size cities such as Harrisburg, Pennsylvania; Raleigh, North Carolina; Augusta, Georgia; and Des Moines, Iowa.~Steve Peoples, Associated Press

The Democrats’ make-believe Senate surge

The elite media has a history of turning on the GOP mid-August
We are once again in the silly season. The elite propaganda media and its Democrat allies are convincing themselves that a dramatic turn is coming.

If you read the current breathless analysis and coverage: Republicans have nominated weak, inadequate candidates for the Senate; recently-passed laws give President Biden and the Democrats “real momentum”; the massive Democratic Party advantage in fundraising will give their candidates huge advantages in defining the election.

We have been here before.

In August 1980, then-presidential candidate Ronald Reagan was reportedly underperforming. He went on to win the biggest electoral college victory against an incumbent president in American history.

In August 1994, no one thought the House Republicans could win a majority. In fact, even the weekend before the election, the professional analysts and political expert newscasters opined that a Republican majority was a fantasy. The following January, we convened the first Republican House Majority in 40 years.

In August 2016, the elites were certain that a Donald Trump victory was impossible — and that Hillary Clinton was inevitably going to be the next president of the United States. If you doubt how deeply the elite media believed in a Clinton victory, go to YouTube and watch election night 2016 coverage. Heartbroken commentator after heartbroken commentator realized, with tragic looks on their faces, that Mr. Trump had won.

Finally, in 2020, House Republicans were supposed to lose 25 seats, according to the experts. Instead, they gained 15 seats. This 40-seat swing put Rep. Kevin McCarthy in reach of the speakership.

As you hear the Democratic surge cheerleading, consider that the Joan of Arc of Trump Haters got only 29% of the vote in Wyoming this week. Instead of wondering why Wyoming voters didn’t believe the made-for-TV Jan. 6 committee hearings, the media is wondering why the voters failed to do “the right thing.” Almost no pundits have looked inward and internalized that a 29% vote for an incumbent is not simply a loss — it is a repudiation.....November realities are going to be a lot friendlier to Republicans than August news media fantasies.~Newt Gingrich 8/22/22

Aug 28, 2022 - Politics & Policy
Poll: Republican voters rally behind Trump despite Mar-a-Lago search

Former President Trump remains a popular figure in the GOP, as a majority of Republican voters believe he should be the party's nominee in 2024, a USA Today/Ipsos poll out Sunday indicates.

Why it matters: The poll was conducted after the FBI's search of Mar-a-Lago. The results illustrate Trump's continued grip on the GOP despite his myriad legal troubles.~Ivana Saric, Axios

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Bob Butler
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Re: A Progressive Edge come the Crisis...

Post by Bob Butler »

jdcpapa wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:06 pm
Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:50 pm
The surge in Democratic votes has to come from somewhere.
I have been unable to find a cite in support of a democrat vote surge. Please provide a cite. Here is what I have found:
I'm going mostly with what I've seen on MSNBC, which is hardly neutral. They oft quote a poll on generic congressmen, hypothetical typical Republicans vs Democrats. The party with the White House was expected to do poorly in the midterms, and this was holding true a few months back. Then the Supremes overthrew Roe v Wade, the Jan 6 Committee got more intense, Biden started hitting his legislative agenda and the bit about Trump stealing secret documents hit. The generic R v D congressmen poll has gone even. Anything that involves the abortion question has gone heavily for choice. By reports, that was always a pro choice leaning, but with the Roe reversal women in particular have gotten intense about it.

So, yes, if you go for slightly old sources, you see some good news for the Republicans, but if you look more recent it is swinging the other way. It doesn't help that there is so much partisan media telling people what they want to hear.
Last edited by Bob Butler on Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bob Butler
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Words, Values and Lessons Learned

Post by Bob Butler »

Hillary used the word ‘deplorable’ and had problems with it being too strong. Perhaps it was then. Biden used words like ‘fascist’, ‘criminal’ and ‘insurrection’. Arguably, they are quite appropriate, thank you. While Hillary wasn’t politic, you can’t argue that she wasn’t right.

I wonder what would have become of the crisis without Trump. The mood among the Republicans was to reject their mainstream candidates. They just couldn’t win primaries against the outsiders. They gave the party to Trump because their own behavior had turned off their base. If Trump didn’t come out, Sarah Palin was the other person who was similarly an outsider. She might have been incompetent instead of criminal. An improvement? Would Black Lives Matter have mattered as much without a cheerleader in chief? Would Palin seeing a threat in Covid have valued the economy over lives? Would there be a healthy set of crisis issues and lessons learned to bring the crisis to a head without Trump? Would Covid, the Ukraine and China have become more important if Trump wasn’t there to be kicked around anymore?

In prior crisis, the western values which came from the lessons learned in the crisis included independence, freedom, human rights, abolition and containment. Is there anything resembling western values coming from Trump? Criminality? Violence? Insurrection? Is that what western values are to the rural crowd? Do they make you stand, applaud and cheer? Are they the principles you would turn to to solve problems?

One thing that felt off in Biden’s speech was his claim that violence has no part of the political process. If you have followed Strauss and Howe, not so. The last several crisis building our culture featured wars: The English Civil War, the US Revolution, the US Civil War, and World War II. I understand Biden's desire to tamp down on the criminality, insurrection and violence, but as a turning theory guy I got a terrible itch. The western values came at a terrible price, and we likely cling to them so firmly because of that price. Do we forget about that price for our convenience? If we let go of a part of western values, will we need them later on?

Or is this the Information Age, and the violence and war are behind us.

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