Higgenbotham's Dark Age Hovel

[Bob Butler]

I would like to live where there is a functional state government, for now, and have been in Texas for 17 years. Once things go completely to hell in a handbag, I think it would be better to be in a place that has as little government as possible at the state and local level.

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/hutte ... h-america/

While there may be Luddite colonies in the imaged area, there are also nuke ICBM squadrons in Montana and North Dakota. I was safely in the balmy Chinook climate of Great Falls Montana's Maelstrom SAC base when the Blizzard of 78 hit back in New England. If a nuclear exchange occurs, that may not be the place to be.

[Higgenbotham]

I would like to live where there is a functional state government, for now, and have been in Texas for 17 years. Once things go completely to hell in a handbag, I think it would be better to be in a place that has as little government as possible at the state and local level.

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/hutte ... h-america/

While there may be Luddite colonies in the imaged area, there are also nuke ICBM squadrons in Montana and North Dakota. I was safely in the balmy Chinook climate of Great Falls Montana's Maelstrom SAC base when the Blizzard of 78 hit back in New England. If a nuclear exchange occurs, that may not be the place to be.

Bob,

I'm not sure if you read what I copied on the previous page preceding that image of the Hutterite colony locations:

For someone looking for a non nuclear war option, has good resistance to cold, and rural living skills, living near a Hutterite community may be a good option. There are Hutterite communities scattered through North Dakota, Montana, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, as I best recall.

Or maybe you did?

[Bob Butler]

Bob,

I'm not sure if you read what I copied on the previous page preceding that image of the Hutterite colony locations:

Or maybe you did?

I scanned the article briefly, but apparently not well enough. It just brought back memories of the Chinook climate and the Blizzard of 78. Besides, if there is no nuclear exchange I expect a new birth of freedom. The US and its government will thrive. I anticipate the familiar predictions of violence and collapse won't manifest. Instead, the high will be a high, the conservative values collapse, and infrastructure will be built. Starship and space this time?

[Higgenbotham]

Besides, if there is no nuclear exchange I expect a new birth of freedom. The US and its government will thrive. I anticipate the familiar predictions of violence and collapse won't manifest. Instead, the high will be a high, the conservative values collapse, and infrastructure will be built. Starship and space this time?

When almost everyone is looking up, down we go.

Introduction

I was driving on the motorway north of
London. It was mid-morning, one weekday in
January 1999. I was making good progress. Ahead
of me the traffic was strung out, going up the hill. It
was a cold day with the sun embedded in high
cloud. Everything had a washed out appearance.
The fields were lost in a bright haze. The salt that
had been scattered on the roads overnight covered
every vehicle with a dirty spray. I felt that I was
witnessing the last years of an era that failed some
time ago. All these trucks, vans and private cars
seemed to me as though they were already ghosts.
They pressed on up the hill, preoccupied with their
mysterious business. I foresaw that their destination
was oblivion.
This book is about the catastrophe that is going
to overtake today’s world civilisation. Many people
may regard this as a preposterous notion, and
certainly a morbid one. Nevertheless, when I first
set out to research past catastrophes and dark ages,
I soon discovered that this was to research five
thousand years of history across every inhabited
continent. No theme in human experience is more
pervasive or consistent. Time and time again,
people have built up societies of outstanding
power, wealth and morality, only to see them
degenerate into weakness, poverty and dissipation.
Those at the apogee of their success have
invariably believed themselves to be the chosen
ones, immune from the accidents that befell their
predecessors, ensconced in glory for all time.
Invariably they have been proved wrong. There is
something going on here that commands our
attention. Humility and common sense suggest we
take seriously the prospect of our future downfall.
The topic is not as pessimistic as it seems.
While some people live quite well, and a few live
very well, the present world order has many
casualties – failed countries and, within successful
countries, failed people. The overturning of
existing arrangements will not be a misfortune to
all. A dark age is a time of great turmoil, suffering
and insecurity. It is also a time of great creativity.
A dark age is a melting pot when old, corrupt and
exhausted institutions are finally broken down and
destroyed. Something new and better suited to
human needs can then be built up in their place. For
the beneficiaries of the old institutions, this is
certainly a painful process. For the rest, who are far
more numerous, it is also a hopeful one.
The detailed characteristics of a dark age will
become clear in the chapters that follow. By way of
preview, it may be described as a time without
government, without trade, and without any sense
of community. It is a time of everyone for him or
herself. During the dark age, mere survival is the
only concern. No one has the leisure for any higher
activity, including keeping records. That is why a
dark age is dark. Its principal feature is that we
know nothing of what took place in it. The collapse
that precipitates the dark age is abrupt and
unexpected. The dark age itself is surprisingly
brief. The recovery is slow and uneven, but
eventually civilisation ascends to heights never
before seen.
The book is divided into four parts. The first
part reviews the history of social collapse and
subsequent dark ages, in order to draw out the
common themes and characteristics. The second
part presents a theory of human sociality and shows
how it can account for this evidence. The third part
applies this theory to our present situation, and
demonstrates that we fit the pattern of a civilisation
in decline, our potential being rapidly used up, our
progress increasingly hindered by impasses.
Finally, the fourth part discusses the timing of the
coming dark age, what it will be like, by what route
we will arrive there, and what might come
afterwards.
The purpose of this book is not really to make
precise forecasts. It is rather to present a set of
theoretical ideas. Everything else is more or less an
exercise and a demonstration of these ideas. Above
all, I have sought to pursue this investigation with
rigour. It is not a complaint about declining
standards. I take no moral positions. I make no
criticisms or recommendations. I offer only
analysis. I wish to help my readers be like
anthropologists from Mars, fascinated by humans,
sometimes despairing of them, often charmed, but
able to judge dispassionately, their eyes unclouded
by their own involvement.
The approach to a dark age is paradoxically a
time when things seem to be getting better in many
respects. Political authorities seem less oppressive.
Economic activity is more elaborate than ever.
Social attitudes become more enlightened. On the
surface, everything can appear to be excellent.
Behind the scenes, though, the contradictions are
growing and they threaten all this wondrous
achievement. It is not when you think you have a
problem that you actually have one – for having
identified it you can do something about it. The
real worry is when things seem to be going
swimmingly well. Let those who say
‘preposterous!’ and ‘how pessimistic!’ reflect on
that.

MARC WIDDOWSON
Bedford, 2001

[Bob Butler]

I suppose this pessimistic attitude has its.place, deserving its own thread. My own attitude is the opposite. The Agricultural Age was a mess. Every four score and seven years a new birth of freedom arises and gets rid of a few flaws. One of the major flaws was colonial imperialism. A shift occurred after WW II. The US forgave lend lease loans if the mother countries opened their ports. Later, cheap labor in the former colonies caused the corporations to spread industrial production. As a result the exploitation common the the Agricultural Age is becoming less.

This does not mean that everywhere the former colonies have caught up with the cultures that used to exploit them. It does mean that the former colonial people in many places can move to their former mother country, often to the mother country’s despair. Europe is absorbing people from the Middle East and Africa. We have latinos and blacks in the US. The desire to continue white supremacy becomes problematic, but that is a hidden cost of exploiting people. Equality seems to be winning, if slowly.

If you want to emphasize the failures, go ahead. In Communist counties, the Communists are for the Communists, not for the people. Everywhere there is racism, with many people hating, oppressing and killing the different. The former colonies are struggling coming out of their former oppression. Elites exploit. That is what they do. If there is a lot of progress there is lots and lots of or more progress which has yet to be made.

But I see the mechanisms of progress.

[guest]

I suppose this pessimistic attitude has its.place, deserving its own thread. My own attitude is the opposite. The Agricultural Age was a mess. Every four score and seven years a new birth of freedom arises and gets rid of a few flaws. One of the major flaws was colonial imperialism. A shift occurred after WW II. The US forgave lend lease loans if the mother countries opened their ports. Later, cheap labor in the former colonies caused the corporations to spread industrial production. As a result the exploitation common the the Agricultural Age is becoming less.

This does not mean that everywhere the former colonies have caught up with the cultures that used to exploit them. It does mean that the former colonial people in many places can move to their former mother country, often to the mother country’s despair. Europe is absorbing people from the Middle East and Africa. We have latinos and blacks in the US. The desire to continue white supremacy becomes problematic, but that is a hidden cost of exploiting people. Equality seems to be winning, if slowly.

If you want to emphasize the failures, go ahead. In Communist counties, the Communists are for the Communists, not for the people. Everywhere there is racism, with many people hating, oppressing and killing the different. The former colonies are struggling coming out of their former oppression. Elites exploit. That is what they do. If there is a lot of progress there is lots and lots of or more progress which has yet to be made.

But I see the mechanisms of progress.

How anyone could look around the US now and call what he sees "progress" is baffling to me.

[Guest]

“Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching”

From an Assyrian Tablet circa 2800 BC

[Bob Butler]

“Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching”

From an Assyrian Tablet circa 2800 BC

Well, this shows the delusion of falling apart is an old one. 2800 BC? Have we made a little progress since then?

You could argue that civilizations are cyclical. After running for a time they fall apart. Assyria, Rome, Spain of the age of exploration, Napoleon's France and others provide examples. After a nation dominates for a time, someone else takes over.

It is just that I look to ages to set the expected pattern. The Industrial and Information Ages don't leave a lot of room for such collapses. Sure, we have salt on our roads and minorities present, but some of us don't see these as catastrophic. Modern Spain, France, and Germany are sharing the prosperity of such patterns.

[guest]

“Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching”

From an Assyrian Tablet circa 2800 BC

Well, this shows the delusion of falling apart is an old one. 2800 BC? Have we made a little progress since then?

You could argue that civilizations are cyclical. After running for a time they fall apart. Assyria, Rome, Spain of the age of exploration, Napoleon's France and others provide examples. After a nation dominates for a time, someone else takes over.

It is just that I look to ages to set the expected pattern. The Industrial and Information Ages don't leave a lot of room for such collapses. Sure, we have salt on our roads and minorities present, but some of us don't see these as catastrophic. Modern Spain, France, and Germany are sharing the prosperity of such patterns.

Germany (where I was born) is practically bankrupt and wracked by incredibly levels violent migrant crime. Germany's future is bleak. Spain and France are not much better off. France routinely loses control of its streets to African and Arab criminals. I don't see any prosperity in Europe anywhere.

[Bob Butler]

Germany (where I was born) is practically bankrupt and wracked by incredibly levels violent migrant crime. Germany's future is bleak. Spain and France are not much better off. France routinely loses control of its streets to African and Arab criminals. I don't see any prosperity in Europe anywhere.

I just looked up the 2024 crime index.The numbers include… https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

Venezuela, #1, 81.2
France, #37, 55.3
USA, #58, 49.3
Germany, #97, 38.9
Spain, #104, 32.6
Andorra (last), #146, 12.9

This does not reflect what you claimed. Putting Spain and France in the same category and claiming Spain has problems are absurd. You have a cockeyed mindset and are willing to make up imaginary stuff to support it. Granted, France has a bit of a problem, but Germany and Spain are better than us and better than average.

Look over the whole list and see if you can come up with another generalization.