Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

by **JULLIEN1** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:40 am

Marc wrote

I can understand your position here in regards to laws that disallow people in a particular country to state what are felt to be lies, based upon reliable evidence, pertaining to recent genocides. In a related vein, many are aware here that Germany, as well as other countries which were seriously impacted by the Holocaust genocide (e.g., Austria, Poland, Hungary, France), have laws against Holocaust denial and against the display of Nazi symbols. In these countries, I can see the sense of anguish and embarrassment in allowing things such as openly-flying Nazi flags, or even the distribution of neo-Nazi materials. These countries seem to struggle with balancing trying to "keep the ugly past at bay" with placing limits on free speech.

I totaly agree and I can add more : France has no law forbidding to call the Algeria war a "genocide" (it's just an overstatement)... contrary to Turkey where free speech is limited in order to promote a lie, the officialdom claim denying there was ever a genocide in Turkey.
Ten years ago, we had violent polemics about torture in Algeria and a general who had told he had really tortured people but tried to explain why he did was sentenced.
Six years ago, a Turkish journalist wrote the historical truth about the events of 1915. He was not sentenced : he was murdered.

by **Marc** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:41 am

Trevor wrote:Yeah, I hope so too. I'm doubtful about the worst-case scenario (a 21st century French Commune) but I think it's going to cause plenty of problems. For many, their identity is not French and have more ties to their homelands, even if they were born in France or whatever European country they live in. One option, although it's not being seriously considered at this point, was throwing them out of the country.

Short of throwing them out of the country, I do wonder, if a "total war" situation broke out (such as the "Clash of Civilizations" world war actually breaking out), if France perhaps would opt to place many of them in internment camps reminiscent of what the US did to Japanese during World War II. (This way, France [and even some of its allies] might well rationalize, the immigrants couldn't migrate to "Axis" countries and fight for them, or act as a "Trojan column" in conjunction with Axis powers.) In Crisis situations, civil rights have a way of getting bent here and there as we know. —Best regards, Marc

by **Trevor** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:10 am

Yeah, I hope so too. I'm doubtful about the worst-case scenario (a 21st century French Commune) but I think it's going to cause plenty of problems. For many, their identity is not French and have more ties to their homelands, even if they were born in France or whatever European country they live in. One option, although it's not being seriously considered at this point, was throwing them out of the country.

by **Marc** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:59 am

Trevor wrote:Just from what I've read, a lot of them do feel alienated. Not all of them, not even close, but enough to where it's a significant problem. Their population as a whole isn't radical, but many of the Imams are, making it a Prophet/Hero relationship. With the French population becoming less tolerant, I'm sure that's going to have a rebound effect and thus, the cycle continues.

France certainly has challenges in figuring out how to respect cultural diversity in France while helping its diverse population to "feel French," including feeling accepted in French society. I can certainly see the Prophet/Hero relationship dynamic you mention (i.e., some radical imams from countries in an Awakening era versus many of those they preach to as well as, overall, the general French population). France will, in all likelihood, hold together, but could spawn some significant domestic friction and even domestic terrorism if things don't go well. I hope France doesn't turn into a tinderbox, and can somehow find solutions here. —Best regards, Marc

by **Trevor** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:11 am

Just from what I've read, a lot of them do feel alienated. Not all of them, not even close, but enough to where it's a significant problem. Their population as a whole isn't radical, but many of the Imams are, making it a Prophet/Hero relationship. With the French population becoming less tolerant, I'm sure that's going to have a rebound effect and thus, the cycle continues.

by **Marc** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:25 pm

Trevor wrote:Islamophobia is on the rise and despite what they like to say, it's getting worse in Europe, matching or even surpassing our problems. I would imagine it's because they have a great Muslim population than we do. In France, the under-30 population, or their version of the Hero generation, about 1/3 of them are Muslim. This is looking like it's going to be more unpleasant, and let's not forget the problems they're already having.

But it's far from one-sided. Radicalism is growing in strength as well and many are afraid to speak out, although I'm sure part of that is cultural, since they believe that if there is a problem, it should be dealt with within the community, not by outsiders.

It would be valuable to know just how integrated the Muslim population feels in France (and btw, I don't mean that in any sort of racist way). But, I think we all agree that it is significant because if the Muslim population in France feels heavily alienated from French life, there could be real problems among France's Millennials if called upon to take up arms against Muslims in a Middle Eastern or North African country. Again, it is worth further research. Thanks for bringing up the valuable issue. —Best regards, Marc

by **Trevor** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:05 pm

Islamophobia is on the rise and despite what they like to say, it's getting worse in Europe, matching or even surpassing our problems. I would imagine it's because they have a great Muslim population than we do. In France, the under-30 population, or their version of the Hero generation, about 1/3 of them are Muslim. This is looking like it's going to be more unpleasant, and let's not forget the problems they're already having.

But it's far from one-sided. Radicalism is growing in strength as well and many are afraid to speak out, although I'm sure part of that is cultural, since they believe that if there is a problem, it should be dealt with within the community, not by outsiders.

by **Marc** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:59 pm

Hi, Trevor,

Along with the stuff about the Amish, I was recently viewing some YouTube videos about the '68ers in France: French baby-boomers who really raised hell in France in May of 1968 and who practically brought the country to its knees. There were enough moderating forces to keep that from happening (as one might generally expect in an Awakening period), but it was tense. However, in this current Crisis period, I'm seriously wondering if the French law that was partially passed to make it illegal to deny the Armenian genocide is being heavily fueled by Islamophobia, despite my own profound distaste in anyone denying the Armenian genocide or any genocide.

I also feel that it is wise to allow as much free speech as possible, but again, given Europe's troubled history, I can see why these anti-genocidal-defamation laws exist or are being promoted. And, this time, the passing of more such laws in Europe may have a negative effect of causing tinderbox relations between, say, France and Turkey or between Israel and Turkey, and possibly lead to more bloodshed. Thus, I think we are on similar pages thought-wise with all of this. —Best regards, Marc

by **Trevor** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:47 pm

I must admit, I believe denying the Holocaust is a disgusting thing to do. Repulsive as it is, though, they have the right to say that, because when you start censoring speech, where does it end?

I sometimes wonder if France will fall into insurrection, since hatred is growing on both sides of the aisle. Wish there was something that could prevent it, but it doesn't look like there's anything that can be done.

by **Marc** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:28 pm

Okay, one more thing: With Israel now strongly flirting with passing a law similar to what France has partially passed (dealing with making denial of the Armenian genocide illegal), I'm left wondering just how much of the motivation in these laws is a myopic idealistic stance of Boomers, as opposed to a nihilistic stance among especially the X'ers in just wanting to piss off Turkey — with few Silent Generation folks still available to put a kibosh on these laws. Maybe it's a fusion of all of this. —Best regards, Marc

Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombings

Post a reply

Expand view Topic review: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombings

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin

Re: 24-Dec-11 WV-Syria may be responsible for suicide bombin