Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

aedens wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2026 10:45 am January 1, 1994, and superseded the 1988 Canada–United States Free Trade Agreement between the United States and Canada.

15:27
The talk came around to American jobs. That question opened the door. What
15:33
Perot said next would define the next 30 years of American politics.

I'd like to direct my question to Mr. Perot.
15:39
Uh, what will you do as president to open foreign markets to fair competition from American business and to stop
15:46
unfair competition here at home from foreign countries so that we can bring
15:51
jobs back to the United States?

This is the question that opened the
15:57
door. Perot's answer becomes the speech that defines the next 30 years of
16:03
American politics.

That's right at the top of my agenda. We've shipped millions of jobs overseas.


16:10
He names the problem in his first breath. But what comes next, the part nobody
16:15
quotes, is the political mechanism, he says, is making it inevitable.
16:21

And uh we have a strange situation because we have a process in Washington
16:28
where after you've served for a while, you cash in, become a foreign lobbyist, make $30,000 a month, then take a leave,
16:34
work on presidential campaigns, make sure you got good contacts, and then go back out.

16:39
He isn't just predicting an economic outcome. He's naming the corruption that's going to make it
16:45
impossible to stop. Then he gets to the mechanism itself.
16:51

To those of you in the audience who are business people, pretty simple. If you're paying 12, $13, $14 an hour for
16:58
factory workers and you can move your factory south the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor, have no health care,
17:04
that's the most expensive single element, making a car, have no environmental controls, no pollution controls, and no retirement.

The
17:12
specific numbers, the three structural advantages, the exact economic case for
17:19
why the jobs will leave. Then he lands the line.
17:24

And you don't care about anything but making money. There will be a giant sucking sound going south.


17:30
But he isn't done. He told the audience he had gone and asked the architects
17:35
of NAFTA themselves how long the damage would last.

I decided I was dumb and didn't
17:40
understand it. So I called the who's who of the folks who've been around it and I said why won't everybody go south? They said it'll be disruptive. I said for how
17:47
long? I finally got them up for 12 to 15 years and I said well how does it stop being disruptive and that is when their
17:52
jobs come up from a dollar an hour to $6 an hour and ours go down to $6 an hour then it's leveled again but in the
17:58
meantime you've wrecked the country with these kinds of deals.


The deal was the North American Free
18:04
Trade Agreement, NAFTA, knitting the United States, Canada, and Mexico into
18:10
one market with the tariffs stripped away.

October 6, 2023
When Does Federal Debt Reach Unsustainable Levels?

Key Points

The U.S. “public debt outstanding” of $33.2 trillion often cited by media is largely misleading, as it includes $6.8 trillion that the federal government “owes itself” due to trust fund and other accounting. The economics profession has long focused on “debt held by the public”, currently equal to about 98 percent of GDP at $26.3 trillion, for assessing its effects on the economy.

We estimate that the U.S. debt held by the public cannot exceed about 200 percent of GDP even under today’s generally favorable market conditions. Larger ratios in countries like Japan, for example, are not relevant for the United States, because Japan has a much larger household saving rate, which more-than absorbs the larger government debt.

Under current policy, the United States has about 20 years for corrective action after which no amount of future tax increases or spending cuts could avoid the government defaulting on its debt whether explicitly or implicitly (i.e., debt monetization producing significant inflation). Unlike technical defaults where payments are merely delayed, this default would be much larger and would reverberate across the U.S. and world economies.

This time frame is the “best case” scenario for the United States, under markets conditions where participants believe that corrective fiscal actions will happen ahead of time. If, instead, they started to believe otherwise, debt dynamics would make the time window for corrective action even shorter.

Yes, since 1982, US GDP growth has become deeply and structurally dependent on debt expansion.

No, GDP cannot "easily" fall by two-thirds (66%) due to capital misallocation.

Higgenbotham wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2026 5:53 pm The part no conventional analyst will consider is that GDP can fall. They just can't conceive of it. The other piece is profit margins. Now this sounds off the wall, but with so much misallocation of capital over the past 50 years GDP can easily fall by 2/3 and profit margins by half.

With so much misallocation of capital over the past 50 years, can GDP easily fall by 2/3?

AI Overview

The Bottom Line

No, GDP cannot "easily" fall by two-thirds (66%) due to capital misallocation. While severe systemic capital misallocation—such as over-investing in unproductive real estate, speculative tech bubbles, or ballooning public debt—acts as a heavy drag on long-term productivity and growth, a 66% drop in real GDP is virtually unprecedented in modern industrial history.

For context, during the Great Depression (the worst economic collapse in modern history), US real GDP fell by about 30%. A 66% collapse would require a total breakdown of physical supply chains, complete failure of the electrical and agricultural grids, or a catastrophic war, rather than a financial rebalancing or a write-down of bad assets.

Why Capital Misallocation Saps Growth but Rarely Destroys GDP

To understand why a 66% drop is mathematically and structurally unlikely, it helps to distinguish between wealth (the value of assets) and GDP (the annual flow of production).

GDP is a Flow, Not a Stock: GDP measures the value of goods and services produced in a given year. If a country builds $10 trillion worth of empty "ghost cities" or unprofitable software, capital has been massively misallocated. When those investments fail, asset values crash (wealth is destroyed), but the actual factory floors, roads, farms, and human labor that produce daily food, energy, and services remain intact to support baseline GDP.

The "Write-Down" Mechanic: In market economies, misallocated capital is routinely written down via bankruptcies or corporate restructuring. While painful, this process reallocates those physical assets to new owners at a lower cost, allowing production to continue.

Quantifiable Drag vs. Collapse: Economic research (such as papers from the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER)) indicates that capital misallocation primarily chips away at Total Factor Productivity (TFP), usually reducing potential growth by fractions of a percentage point per year, rather than triggering abrupt multi-decade geometric collapses.

Comparing Historical Collapses vs. A 2/3 Decline

To see how extreme a 66% reduction is, consider how the deepest economic crises in history compare to this hypothetical scenario:

Economic Event Typical Real GDP Decline Primary Driver
Typical Modern Recession 2% to 5% Cyclical demand shocks, minor asset corrections.
2008 Global Financial Crisis ~6% (median OECD loss) Systemic banking failures and real estate misallocation.
1929 Great Depression ~30% Complete credit collapse, massive deflationary spiral, policy failure.
Hypothetical 2/3 Collapse 66% Total structural breakdown; loss of basic industrial capability.

What a Capital Misallocation Crisis Actually Looks Like

Instead of a sudden 66% plunge, decades of misallocated capital typically resolve in one of two ways:

"The Lost Decade" (Secular Stagnation): The economy suffers from a long-term slowdown in growth. Japan post-1990 and China’s ongoing property sector rebalancing are primary examples. Instead of GDP dropping by two-thirds, GDP flatlines or grows at a sluggish 0% to 2% for twenty years as the economy slowly pays off or inflates away unproductive debt.

A Debt Spiral and Inflation: If the misallocation is driven by government debt crowding out private investment, it can trigger a debt spiral. If a government prints money to sustain unproductive projects, nominal GDP might soar while real GDP stagnates, eroding purchasing power through inflation rather than a contraction of output.

Higgenbotham wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:49 pm My more specific predictions would be:

• There will be a major global financial panic and crisis. Supply chains will break, resulting in unavailability of critical raw materials and components. Global trade will begin to shut down. As it begins to become apparent that the supply chain linkages are permanently broken, the global interlinked financial markets will shut down and cease to exist. This will all happen very quickly. It will not take years from the initial panic.
• The focus of governments will turn to controlling their panicked and hungry populations. Due to lack of availability of imported goods and adequate storage "sufficient to reconstitute" a system consistent with nation state government, this will prove to be too little too late and most government will devolve to the local level as populations lose faith in their national governments and the national governments lose the resources and ability to control their populations.
• There will be no large scale nuclear war. Instead, the population will be culled through starvation, local strife (including settling of long-standing scores) and disease. Wave after wave of pandemics will sweep the world.
• Similar to national economies and governments, centralized utilities will fail or become so decrepit as to be unsafe and unusable. All centralized utilities including the power grid will shut down permanently.
• The initial worldwide kill rate during the first couple decades following the financial panic will exceed 90%. The global population will be in the range of a few tens of millions when the bottom is hit in two or three centuries. Similar to the last dark age, the world's largest cities will have a population on the order of 25,000 and a large town will be 1,000.
• Life during the coming dark age will be similar to the last dark age but worse due to environmental damage and pollution.

Higgenbotham wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2026 5:53 pm GDP since 1982 has been strongly dependent on debt growth.

Has GDP since 1982 been strongly dependent on debt growth?

AI Overview

Yes, since 1982, US GDP growth has become deeply and structurally dependent on debt expansion. Prior to the early 1980s, the nation's economic output grew at roughly the same pace as its debt baseline. However, after 1982, the relationship fundamentally shifted: debt growth began permanently outpacing GDP growth.

The Post-1982 Structural Shift

Before 1982, the US debt-to-GDP ratio was relatively stable, hitting a post-WWII low of 24.6% in 1974 and hovering around 31.8% in 1981. Since then, economic growth has relied on an accelerating treadmill of total public and private borrowing.

To see this trajectory clearly, look at how the Federal Debt-to-GDP ratio has escalated over the last few decades:

1982: ~34% — The beginning of aggressive fiscal expansion via supply-side tax cuts combined with increased government spending.
1992: ~48% — A steady upward climb through the late 1980s and early 1990s.
2000: ~55% — A brief reprieve and pay-down during the late 90s tech boom.
2010: ~90% — A massive spike as historic bailouts and stimulus packages were used to resurrect the economy from the 2008 Great Recession.
2020: 126.1% — Reaching an all-time historic high due to emergency pandemic spending.
2026 (Current): ~124% — Structural entitlement costs (Social Security/Medicare) and compounding interest service payments have normalized debt levels far above historic baselines.

How Debt Fuels the Economic Engine

Rather than GDP naturally driving wealth creation, economic momentum since 1982 has required increasing amounts of debt to generate the same dollar of economic output. This dependence functions across three primary channels:

Fiscal Deficits as a Growth Floor: Whenever economic cycles slow, the federal government uses deficit spending (tax cuts or direct stimulus) to artificially boost consumer demand and corporate profits.

Diminishing Marginal Returns: In the mid-20th century, a dollar of new debt generated roughly a dollar (or more) of GDP. Today, because a huge portion of federal borrowing is directed toward mandatory safety-net entitlements and interest on existing debt rather than high-multiplier infrastructure or R&D, it requires significantly more debt to produce a single unit of GDP growth.

Asset-Driven Wealth Illusion: Post-1982 deregulation and low interest rates allowed private debt to swell alongside public debt. This fueled massive booms in housing, real estate, and equities. While the US private wealth-to-GDP ratio surged from 3x to over 4.6x GDP, this deep reservoir of assets is fundamentally supported by a highly leveraged financial system.

Equitable Growth

The Threshold of Slower Growth

While debt expansion has successfully warded off prolonged depressions, academic consensus warns that the relationship eventually hits a tipping point. Studies from organizations like the World Bank and the IMF indicate that when a country's debt-to-GDP ratio sustains a level above 77% to 90%, the burden of servicing that debt begins to directly drag down future capital investment and long-term economic growth.

Because the US economy has sat well above this threshold for well over a decade, future GDP expansion faces a mathematical headwind: multi-trillion-dollar borrowing is increasingly required just to maintain baseline growth.

While the marginal return on new debt may be hovering slightly positive based on current conditions, can't the marginal return on that same debt turn negative during future conditions which are different?

AI Overview

Yes, the marginal return on that same debt can absolutely turn negative if future economic, financial, or operational conditions deteriorate.
When an entity (a company, government, or individual) takes on debt, the initial calculation is based on expected future returns versus fixed borrowing costs. If the assumptions underlying those expectations change, what was a profitable decision can quickly become a loss-generating burden.

Key Drivers That Flip Marginal Returns to Negative

Declining Revenue or Asset Productivity: If the debt was used to fund an expansion or project, and market demand drops, the asset may generate far less income than anticipated. However, the debt service payments remain fixed, dragging the marginal return into negative territory.

Rising Interest Rates: For variable-rate debt, a spike in market interest rates directly increases borrowing costs. If the cost of servicing the debt rises faster than the returns generated by the investment, the net marginal return becomes negative.

Inflation and Margin Compression: If high inflation drives up operating expenses (like labor and raw materials) but the entity cannot pass those costs onto customers, operating profit shrinks. The fixed debt payments eat up a larger share of a smaller profit pool.

Currency Depreciation: If the debt is denominated in a foreign currency and the local currency weakens, the cost to service that debt increases in local terms, erasing any positive returns the investment originally produced.

The Buffett Indicator
US Total Stock Market Cap divided by US GDP. Warren Buffett called it “probably the best single measure of where valuations stand at any given moment.”

Current value
241%

Higgenbotham wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:32 pm

I think that we're going to see eventually a series of bankruptcies. And I think that the rise in the interest rate is probably the fatal sign which is going to ignite a derivatives crisis that is going to bring down the derivatives system. There is something like a quadrillion of derivatives and most of them are interest rate derivatives. The spiking of the interest rate in the United States may set that off.

--Hugo Salinas Price (transcribed from the link above)