Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

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Bob Butler
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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:09 pm
Rashad Turner described how he became a founder of Black Lives Matter in St. Paul, but he soon came to realize that caring for black lives, black children, and black families was the least of the group’s concerns. ...
A few decades back I was into creating web pages. On of them was entirely stolen from an alas nameless source, Constructing a Logical Argument. The first part of the article described just that. You list premises, argue that each of your premises is true, then used logic to show that if all the premises were in fact true you could reach a logical conclusion. This conclusion could be countered by showing any one of the premises false, or the logic flawed.

But I was more interested in the bulk of the article that followed. They listed a few dozen fallacies, bad arguments, that are often used to support bad premises and bad logic. Most of them had Latin names. The fallacies had been seen by philosophers and debaters that long ago.

One of them is Argumetum ad Hominem, which translates to argument directed at the man. I you cannot attack what is being debated, you attack a man associated with the idea being presented. John wallows in it above. I might go as far as to suggest that every idea has a bad person that can be attacked. This does not disprove the idea. In the example, a charitable organization was used as a foil for personal gain. Black Lives Matter. Or is it the NRA? Or is it the dissolved Trump charity? Yes, bad people can be identified. One can argue why the laws against profiting from charity can, should and do exist, and argue that various people acted to violate the law, and thus ‘lock him up’ might be implemented. What that does not do is prove that the purported purpose of the charity is in some way unworthy. It does not prove minorities should be murdered, or that US citizens should not have a right to own and carry weapons.

Thus, John indulged in a totally irrelevant fallacy.

Now say Hitler, Stalin, Mao, al-Assad and Trump were each judged bad men. That does not prove conservative thought or tribal thought bad. However, each person could be associated with conservative thought or tribal thought. If they are judged bad because they indulged in certain philosophies, you could judge the philosophy itself bad. If you judge racism and violence bad, it seems possible to make such a judgement.

But not all aspects of conservative thought are bad. If it is acceptable to promote the general Welfare as the Constitution preamble suggests, if problems are more visible in urban areas than rural, is it unclear what action is of benefit generally?

But you should argue logically, not just refuse to acknowledge points you do not agree with. Of late, people seem to have realized they cannot defend much of their worldview. Rather than admit their failure and trying to fix it, they just ignore what they can’t debate against. They indulge in silence and fallacy.
Last edited by Bob Butler on Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Blame

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:04 pm
Please put the blame where it belongs, and stop blaming innocent
hard-working blacks for the intentional destruction wrought by the Democrats.
I would put the blame on the ghetto mindset. It is easy when the whites will not hire you to become convinced that in order to get ahead you have to become a pusher, sports star, or mother. This is the opposite of the behavior that resulted in a thriving Tulsa. The Democrats do not encourage the ghetto mindset. That is John doing tribal thinking, mischaracterizing groups not like him.
Last edited by Bob Butler on Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:25 pm
** 09-Jun-2021 World View: Blaming blacks
Guest wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:44 am
So blacks should not be held accountable for violent crime. It's someone else's fault. Got it.

Now I see how these people think.
Oh gimme a break.

Blacks who commit crimes should be arrested, jailed, and tried in court, just like whites who commit crimes.

The problem today is that the Democrats are refusing to arrest criminals, like the antifa-blm fascists who are committing violent acts across the country -- and most of the antifa-blm fascists are White Democrats. And the Democrats are also releasing violent criminals from jails, and most of them are black.

But you can't blame honest, hard-working blacks for the crimes of a few, when the real criminals are the White Democrats.
The primary reason the looters are not arrested is because the cops are generally under siege by the violent protesters. This is part of why I think violent protest is a bad idea. It just gives the cops an excuse to not enforce the law, to not do their jobs. Then again, nobody is trying to murder me. You can only swallow official murderous behavior for so long.

The looters are primarily black locals as far as I can tell. They may tend Democratic, but they are not part of the official party apparatus implementing party policy. This is just John indulging in tribal thinking and propaganda.

Antifa was a real movement before George Floyd’s death, with their prime opposites and targets being the KKK and Neo Nazi. Since then they have virtually disappeared. Oh a few reds claim they are hiding under their beds or claimed to be antifa to paint a bad picture of the blue sympathizers, but this is again more about John tribal thinking and propagandizing. If he yaps enough, maybe he can convince himself?

I certainly agree some blacks have an honest hard working mind set. Judging from the number of pardons necessary and number of ongoing investigations, the real criminals would include the Trump administration.

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Criticisms of Generational Dynamics

Post by Bob Butler »

It seems the above two posts (at least) are more criticisms of John's wild thinking than critiquing mine. As such they would better belong in the Criticism of General Dynamics thread rather than here. If you cannot defend your supposed mind set, if you must resort to stalinist censorship, you could at least do that right?

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Re: Criticisms of Generational Dynamics

Post by John »

** 09-Jun-2021 World View: Tribal Thinking
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:41 pm
> It seems the above two posts (at least) are more criticisms of
> John's wild thinking than critiquing mine. As such they would
> better belong in the Criticism of General Dynamics thread
> rather than here. If you cannot defend your supposed mind set, if
> you must resort to stalinist censorship, you could at least do
> that right?
We know what you mean whenever you use the phrase "tribal thinking."

You always mean that you're contemptuous of the members of this forum,
because we all have Neanderthal, tribal thinking which is no match for
your vastly superior and enlightened thinking.

If you want to be taken seriously, then treat me and the other members
of this forum with respect, because most of us are a lot smarter
than you.

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Tribal Thinking

Post by Bob Butler »

John wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:56 pm
We know what you mean whenever you use the phrase "tribal thinking."

You always mean that you're contemptuous of the members of this forum, because we all have Neanderthal, tribal thinking which is no match for your vastly superior and enlightened thinking.

If you want to be taken seriously, then treat me and the other members of this forum with respect, because most of us are a lot smarter than you.
“Tribal Thinking” has a specific meaning quite unrelated to any perceived contempt. It is a gathering together of like peoples and a building of contempt which in tern justifies oppression including violence. It is real enough. It was cost effective through much of history and presumably before. In many ways it reflect’s Darwin’s evolution at a cultural level. The fit survive. As such it was generally cost effective assuming your culture is fit. Since it was so cost effective for so long, tribal thinking is deeply ingrained in both human cultural and personal behavior.

Tribal thinking leads to conquest and racism. Attempted conquest reached its peak with World War II. Racism is a central factor in the current crisis. The Axis attempt at conquest failed, the modern resurgence of racism is failing. These are representative of many recent conflicts. Tribal thinking is slowly loosing ground. It was once cost effective, at least if you were the wining culture in a war or a member of the dominant race. Now if you try it, you loose.

Now from that background you can ask a bunch of questions. Is tribal thinking cost effective? Is tribal thinking moral? Are cultures with a strong element of tribal thinking generally ahead, or is the strife, violence and conflict a curse? Is tribal thinking smart? I think it is obvious where I stand on these questions.

Now in internet debate sites the dominant faction is not necessarily smart. They are just dominant. But if they as a group cannot defend their perspective, if they fall silent, if they employ stalinist censorship, that does not bode well for the merit of their perspective.

Now I don’t hold that the inability to defend their position and censorship by the moderator make them stupid. Worldviews are clung to by smart and less smart people. You cannot evaluate somebody’s IQ by their worldview.

But an inability to recognize that the world is changing is not a sign of a smart group.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by Cool Breeze »

Bob Butler wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:56 pm
Cool Breeze wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:53 am
spottybrowncow wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:31 pm
but I wish he (and many others) would stick to what they're good at, and not feel compelled to comment on things they know nothing about.
That's why I don't interact with Bobby B anymore. He's delusional. BLM is a lying, marxist organization. Every single one of their complaints or grievances is outright false, or at best, misplaced. None of their martyrs were decent people, in fact, they were all criminals. The best part about it for BB is that Democrat cities run the mayhem, participate in it, or better yet (for his foolish positions, which he'll never address) do not involve themselves at all while the black lives that apparently matter kill one another to the tune of nearly all the murders in said cities. The man, like BLM, is a joke. Luckily, we're not that stupid to listen to him about anything.
There were many issues and conflicts involved in the protests last summer. Will the bad cops stop murdering minorities? Will the cops stop cowering in their HQs so they can do their jobs? Will the military involve itself in domestic politics, allow itself to be used as a partisan tool? Will the protesters provide enough cover for the looters to loot? Will the federal government which originally had no police powers attempt to override the local policies of the people with clear authority?

If you focus on one issue, one question, you miss a lot. That doesn’t so much imply stupidity, but rather a lock into one world view. Too many people pay attention to some issues, and ignore what is not part of their perspective. Is deliberate ignorance the same as stupidity? Well, everybody is to some extent locked into their perspective. It’s that it is often a tribal thinking variant, with the resultant affinity for criminal, racist, violent behavior. Kill. Spread vile stereotypes with no truth. Violate the law. Oppress people.

There are aspects of conservative thought worth preserving, but tribal thinking isn’t one of them. It is constructive to do academic studies to predict an understand tribal thought in far away cultures, but advocating them in one’s own culture is foul.

One of the central tenants of my perspective is understanding all the perspectives involved. Deliberately not understanding, ignoring valid perspectives on the situation because reality conflicts with your own world view, does not say a lot for your worldview.

By the way, if you want to avoid my correcting your faulty worldview, it might be prudent not to fault my worldview by name. If you recognize your worldview cannot be defended, you might just stop posting.
I did in my post, you countered not one single point. Keep defending criminals and lying, that's what you do best, though no one here buys any of it. Better yet, go live in a non-white majority country and see how much you love it. And no, I'm not talking Eurasian either.

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Re: Criticisms of Generational Dynamics

Post by Cool Breeze »

John wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:56 pm
** 09-Jun-2021 World View: Tribal Thinking
Bob Butler wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:41 pm
> It seems the above two posts (at least) are more criticisms of
> John's wild thinking than critiquing mine. As such they would
> better belong in the Criticism of General Dynamics thread
> rather than here. If you cannot defend your supposed mind set, if
> you must resort to stalinist censorship, you could at least do
> that right?
We know what you mean whenever you use the phrase "tribal thinking."

You always mean that you're contemptuous of the members of this forum,
because we all have Neanderthal, tribal thinking which is no match for
your vastly superior and enlightened thinking.

If you want to be taken seriously, then treat me and the other members
of this forum with respect, because most of us are a lot smarter
than you.
Exactly, all we do is defend our position with facts and thus, appropriate conclusions. The problem is that this person thinks that we don't know the foundations of BLM, what they are doing, or how we are able to analyze within a second that someone like George Floyd (or you pick any other criminal) always had it coming (it's not like it's the first offense) beyond actually killing himself in that fake encounter of marxist propaganda. Most blacks might buy it, so it's even worse that the Butlers of the world promote their lies and constant violence and foolishness. A larger percentage of black americans than people realize know the whole thing is a scam, but because of the BBs of the world who empower the idiots and propaganda they are entirely neutralized, much like the violence in the muslim world. So Bob, either name 1 headlining name that wasn't a criminal in the scenario of claim, or previously in his life, and maybe we'll start to take you seriously. Which means we won't. And the cherry on top is that in all of these situations it is a black run urban gov't; the realities are so stupid it's a real detriment to all Americans to have people lying left and right like you, double B.

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Principle and Prejudice

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:44 am
Exactly, all we do is defend our position with facts and thus, appropriate conclusions. The problem is that this person thinks that we don't know the foundations of BLM, what they are doing, or how we are able to analyze within a second that someone like George Floyd (or you pick any other criminal) always had it coming (it's not like it's the first offense) beyond actually killing himself in that fake encounter of marxist propaganda. Most blacks might buy it, so it's even worse that the Butlers of the world promote their lies and constant violence and foolishness. A larger percentage of black americans than people realize know the whole thing is a scam, but because of the BBs of the world who empower the idiots and propaganda they are entirely neutralized, much like the violence in the muslim world. So Bob, either name 1 headlining name that wasn't a criminal in the scenario of claim, or previously in his life, and maybe we'll start to take you seriously. Which means we won't. And the cherry on top is that in all of these situations it is a black run urban gov't; the realities are so stupid it's a real detriment to all Americans to have people lying left and right like you, double B.
The problem is you are defending tribal thinking with tribal thinking. Part of it is developing reasons to hate, oppress and in the extreme conquer other groups. How do you deflate a prejudice? If someone is really really racist and convinced of the truth of his prejudices, how do you deflate it? If someone thinks his prejudices true, someone who dares to question him must be lying?

Tribal thinking involves prejudice, oppression and violence. If you indulge in it, your culture wallows in prejudice, oppression and violence. John’s analysis of far away cultures that are seeped in such thoughts do not paint a pretty picture. Why welcome that sort of thinking here?

I’ll go with the idea that all men are created equal, no man should indulge in using force to take from another, that no bad cop can appoint himself judge, jury and executioner. Everyone should be able to get due process of law. These ideas are hardly original, being in the Constitution as amended, even if the words originally seemed only to apply to white, male, Protestant landowners. They should by now apply to everyone. That is the way things are slowly drifting. Too slowly. Each crisis, a few more steps are taken, usually in the Industrial Age over some tribal thinker’s dead body.

Now I don’t have to prove your prejudices false. I probably can’t. They are prejudices. They are irrational stubborn thoughts. I’ll just quote the Enlightenment philosophers and the laws of the United States. These are held higher by roundhead / urban / blue / Democratic folks. They are often held in contempt by the cavalier / rural / red / Republicans. That does not make either group liars, or keep bad people away from either group.

The Democrats are more idealistic. They aspire for all men. The Republicans are more prejudiced. They will look for excuses to oppress and murder. I’d rather live in a world where there are more of the former.

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Re: Polyticks: Bob Butler's Perspective

Post by John »

** 10-Jun-2021 World View: Rants about Tribal Thinking

You rants about tribal thinking show that you're on the verge of
insanity.

Here's a typical conversation with you:

John says: 2+2=4

Butler says: 2+2=5. John was wrong because of tribal thinking.

That's all you can do. Jackass Democrats lie about everything,
and say that anyone who disagrees with them is a racist, when
in fact the Democrats are simply jackasses, and the worst kind
of racists.

We've seen this three times in the last week.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... y-200.html

Trump was right when he said that the virus might have been a
lab leak. The jackass Democrats called that a conspiracy theory.
Trump was right and the asshole Democrats were dead wrong, as usual.

Trump was right when he said that hydroxychloroquine would improve
covid survival rates. A new study confirms that Trump was right,
and the jackass Democrats were dead wrong, as usual.

Trump was right when he said that the clearing of Lafayette Square
had nothing to do with him. A new police report confirms that Trump
was right and the jackass democrats were dead wrong, as usual.

Image
  • Trump is always right, and the jackass Democratss are always wrong


Image

Image
  • Tweets from Republicans gloating about the incredible stupidity of Democrats


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... y-200.html

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