Societal collapse

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tim
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by tim »

Higgenbotham wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:56 am
I don't know the precise levels, but let's say, as an example, that Vitamin D levels were measured in the US population and the blood levels were found to average 20 (I can't remember the units) with a "normal" range of 15-32, where 2.5% of the population exceeds 32 and 2.5% is below 15 (and I don't know how "normal" is defined in terms of percentages that fall outside this type of a range). It's my understanding that this is how "normal" blood levels of various parameters are defined in a population - whether the individual's levels conform to some average of the levels in the population. Further, it's arbitrarily defined that "normal" equates to "healthy", as I believe is the actual practice in the US today. But in a hunter-gatherer population, Vitamin D levels are typically in the range of 40-50. I would argue that healthy Vitamin D levels for Americans would be closer to the range of 40-50 than the range of 15-32 of most sunlight deprived Americans.

Then there's the question of what is able to be diagnosed using standard methods. It's said that the processes for many diseases of Western civilization begin long before they are able to be clinically diagnosed using standard methods. So, for example, heart disease that appears decades later begins in childhood (I read that once and the culprit if I remember correctly is fast food) and the processes that lead to cancer begin decades before cancer appears.

I'm quite sure that the CDC would define an American whose blood levels are in the normal range by American standards and who is in the early stages of cancer, heart disease, or something else as being healthy. I would argue that they are not.

It would be my best guess that the majority of the "healthy" individuals who died of covid-19 were not truly healthy. As an example, I read about a robust man in his 40s (he looked like a bodybuilder) who nearly died of the virus. He was touted by the media as being healthy. Buried somewhere in all the information was the fact that he owned an auto body shop. And my thought was how much particulate did he get into his lungs from spraying paint, not to mention all the VOC in his blood? Then there's the question of whether he had a history of steroid use for his bodybuilding - judging from his appearance, very likely.
Vitamin D is not a vitamin, but a secosteroid. There are Vitamin D receptors throughout the human body which affect the transcription of genes and other functions. Innate immunity, the body's first line of defense against pathogens, is tied to Vitamin D and the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR). Dosing with Vitamin D is not a good idea as it is a tightly regulated steroid in your body.

The two Vitamin D metabolites are 1,25-D (active) and 25-D (inactive). The metabolites bind to the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR) and either activate or inactivate the receptor. When you get a blood test done to check your vitamin D level they are probably looking at 25-D, the inactive form, the one that inactivates the VDR. Sunshine on the skin allows the body to produce 1,25-D, the active form that activates the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR).

So a Vitamin D blood test showing low 25-D is your body downregulating the inactive form of Vitamin D, in an attempt to activate the VDR and wake up the immune system. When you supplement with Vitamin D it becomes 25-D, further causing harm by keeping the immune system from turning on. This is why you feel better in the short term when supplementing with Vitamin D (just like taking prednisone) but in the long run it is unable to cure any disease. Long enough supplementation will get you sick as the pathogens in your body proliferate.

https://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/vitamind
Yet, observational studies show that populations which avoid vitamin D consumption have naturally low levels of 25-D and remain healthy with such levels.

healthy Chilean women – A study which tested the level of 25-D in 90 “healthy, ambulatory Chilean women” showed that 27% of the premenopausal and 60% of the postmenopausal women had 25-D levels under 20 ng/ml.26)

healthy Saudi medical students – A 2012 study collected data from 95 male and 103 female students with an average age of 19.5 years old. In 100% of the students, the vitamin D level was considered low. The mean 25-D level was 26.83 nmol/L in males and 16.03 nmol/L in females.

healthy Bangladeshi women – A study on healthy Bangladeshi women found that approximately 80% of the women had a level of 25-D under 16 ng/ml.27) A separate study of premenopausal Bangladeshi women came to a similar conclusion.28)
healthy Chinese infants – In a 1992 study, healthy full-term infants from China had serum concentrations of 25-D ranging from an average of 5 ng/ml to 14 ng/ml.29)

healthy Omani women – A 2011 study of 41 apparently healthy women (ages 18-45 years) working at the Royal Hospital, Muscat, Oman found that all study subjects had 25-D levels below 50 nmol/L.30)

young healthy adults in western India – Among young healthy adults from the western part of India, the average serum level of 25-D indicated vitamin D “deficiency”: 17.4 ng/ml.31)

healthy Saudi Arabians – Severe hypovitaminosis D is widespread and more common in non-diabetics than diabetics in Saudi adults.32) Nevertheless, this 2010 study's authors conclude a bit bizarrely, “The study further underscores the need for vitamin D fortification of the Saudi diet, and the promotion of vitamin D supplementation in both groups.”

healthy lactating mothers – Even when lactating mothers take all but exceedingly high levels of vitamin D – 6,000 IU which is 15 times the United States' Recommended Daily Intake – the vitamin D content in breast milk remains very low.33) This is confusing for advocates of vitamin D supplementation who would think that breastfeeding mothers would give their infant extra levels of vitamin D during formative stages of growth.

The Vitamin D Council, an organization that advocates vitamin D supplementation, stated:

One of the great mysteries in human biology is the fact that most human breast milk is deficient in vitamin D. How could Nature overlook such an important nutrient in the “perfect food”?

Vitamin D Council

One research team, studying patients with xeroderma pigmentosum, a genetic disorder in which patients are unable to repair damage caused by ultraviolet light, found that vitamin D levels are maintained even when patients practice at least six years of rigorous photoprotection and not supplementing with vitamin D. More importantly, the researchers also concluded that the clinical manifestations of vitamin D “deficiency” were absent.
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; - Exodus 20:5

Cool Breeze
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

Bob Butler wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:18 am
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
1. Does influenza kill healthy people? The CDC said so. You never met one. Nor did you hear about it. If you don't understand that this proves the whole thing is propaganda, again, you aren't paying attention and want to believe in made up crises. And no, healthy people don't die from the flu or the wuhan flu.
1: One self described ‘Idealist” I have debated once tried to promote Bishop Berkeley’s supposition that one cannot know things one has not observed. I countered with Newton’s Principia, which includes the basic scientific theory. This sounds suspiciously like a reprise. You cannot learn from the observations of other people? A philosophy professor also into Berkeley’s fantasy tried to convince me as an electronics major that electrons didn’t exist. No one has directly observed an electron. I was tempted to suggest he insert keys in a power outlet and touch both. I was doing a paper on semiconductor lasers at the time. If an electron drops to a lower energy level it emits a photon of the precise energy level of the change. The professor had just not examined the evidence. It was pointless to discuss it.

I was wondering how you remained so ignorant.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
2. Central planning hurt far more humans. Why? This flu isn't lethal and you crushed the economy and people's livelihoods. Sheesh, even your favorite Dem governors sent the flu directly into nursing homes to cause half of all the "deaths from covid".
2: This flu is lethal. Try to visit your local hospital emergency room if you insist only personal observations are valid.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
3. You say nothing meaningful nor give an example. I'm sure Africans created great civilizations in your mind too.
3: Define meaningful? That which you agree with? I suppose that because a bad cop hasn’t shot at you it never happens?

I did discover a PBS project called “Africa’s Great Civilizations.” If you compare them against China or Rome they don’t match the scale, but so do few other civilizations. But that hasn’t been my area of interest.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
4. CO2 isn't a pollutant and humans do not cause any manner of "warming". I proved that already, you didn't read and can't counter it so you didn't bring it up.
4: I did bring it up. I listed a bunch of things that can effect climate. You ignored it as it was related to a problem and your mind set is fixated on problems not existing. You seem to ignore or reject any data that supports problems existing.
Cool Breeze wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 pm
n case you didn't know, but have an open mind, "cases" of Covid mean zero. You can't even tell me how someone gets a positive PCR test and why that might not be real, etc. You have no business opining on any of these measures since you don't demonstrate understanding of them even on a cursory level. Notice that I am not saying that you can't understand, are incapable, or need to be a scientist or doctor. You do need to grasp the frailties of the concepts or the assertions, however. As such, you are a pawn looking for confirmation of lefty ideas, which is fine, but you should know that you are opining on topics you don't really know much about at all.
Again, the US has four percent of the population and twenty five percent of the cases. You can’t tell me that the US has done well in containing the virus. Your pretending the cases don’t exist somehow doesn’t impress me.
I'll just respond to the first and last points, since you don't understand what you know and certainly don't know what you don't know.

You consent to believe many things. We all do. The problem is your awareness of the evidence and the people you are trusting. You trust them having no clue about what you know, again, and don't know what you don't know.

As an example, you can't even tell me what a case is, why a case matters, and how they are tested.

I work every day in a hospital, so stop your foolish statements. If this flu is lethal then how come 99%+ of people coming in contact with it don't die. Do you know what 99% is as a number? If you didn't bet a team with 99% chance to win because you were worried that you would lose, you define a whole new realm of stupid the globalists lick their chops on. I know all I need to know if you don't respond to that real issue in your thinking.

Cool Breeze
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

tim wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:04 pm
What I don't understand about the fear of global warming: It is a fact that the Earth has gone through periods of Ice Ages. This is a natural cycle that has been happening long before any influence of man. Wouldn't the real fear be a (natural) climate change where most of the Earth is covered in ice? How would any humans survive?

If anything, man made global warming is a positive thing pushing the next Ice Age farther back.
This was also one of my proofs that the eschatology is also inverted in these fear mongers minds; they don't even have their fear protocol straight. It's the definition of stupid.

The earth has been much hotter and much colder. But we are to believe, when these periods happened, which we know had nothing to do with carbon emissions from humans, that NOW we are to blame? It's just stupid, again, amazingly so, that only people hooked on some social or government cheese/buyoff scheme could propagate it.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:13 pm
I'll just respond to the first and last points, since you don't understand what you know and certainly don't know what you don't know.

You consent to believe many things. We all do. The problem is your awareness of the evidence and the people you are trusting. You trust them having no clue about what you know, again, and don't know what you don't know.

As an example, you can't even tell me what a case is, why a case matters, and how they are tested.

I work every day in a hospital, so stop your foolish statements. If this flu is lethal then how come 99%+ of people coming in contact with it don't die. Do you know what 99% is as a number? If you didn't bet a team with 99% chance to win because you were worried that you would lose, you define a whole new realm of stupid the globalists lick their chops on. I know all I need to know if you don't respond to that real issue in your thinking.
I believe you won't debate me on Marxism, climate or the conflict between Berkely and Newton as you have not studied them and can't. If you were knowable in those fields, you would engage me.

A decease is a problem to the extent that it is contagious and that is lethal. You have to look at both factors and combine them. Looking at just one is not sufficient. COVID is both contagious and lethal. It has managed to overload our health care system due to being both. It has had much more impact than many a disease that is only one or the other.

If you really buy into Berkeley, to prove 300,000 plus have died in the US alone, I would have to collet all 300,000 plus bodies in your presence and let you sense them all directly. It doesn't seem worth the trouble.

You might want to pick up a copy of "The Righteous Mind" by Johnathon Heit. He has moral judgements being intuitive, emotional, and quick with reason only justifying the intuition after the fact. I would add that the rational part of the mind ignores facts that contradict the intuition. So long as you systematically leave yourself unaware or editing out things like climate, racism, Marxism, Berkeley, disease and so much more, you are going to come up on the short end.

Cool Breeze
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

I consider all of those topics. As I have studied them, I know what their claims are and the evidence is for each particular claim. I, as a result, come to a conclusion on the claim, its facts or supports, and then accept or reject it (or reform it slightly).

That's how one should think.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:17 pm
This was also one of my proofs that the eschatology is also inverted in these fear mongers minds; they don't even have their fear protocol straight. It's the definition of stupid.

The earth has been much hotter and much colder. But we are to believe, when these periods happened, which we know had nothing to do with carbon emissions from humans, that NOW we are to blame? It's just stupid, again, amazingly so, that only people hooked on some social or government cheese/buyoff scheme could propagate it.
There are indeed many factors effecting climate as I have pointed out. One dominant factor is the sequestering or releasing of greenhouse gasses. They were indeed sequestered by life as coal, oil, gas and methane long before humans came on the scene. You can't blame humans for the ice ages, though the recent ice ages were the result of among other things greenhouse gasses being sequestered. We have been getting cooler for a long time. The result was much more effecting of life forms than recent warming.

But starting with slash and burn agriculture and later with the industrial revolution, releasing the carbon and recently the methane will be the result of human action. As much of the human population is near the sea, and temperature warming will make land unavailable, it would be prudent to act to stop it.

I'd suggest that in addition to noting that we have been both hotter and colder in the past, you might note that the sea levels have been higher and lower.

Of course, some would rather not solve problems.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:56 pm
I consider all of those topics. As I have studied them, I know what their claims are and the evidence is for each particular claim. I, as a result, come to a conclusion on the claim, its facts or supports, and then accept or reject it (or reform it slightly).

That's how one should think.
I have my doubts. As soon as I showed any knowledge of those areas, you dropped your claims quite promptly. It's like your claim of working in a hospital. First responders generally are all for the general public taking more precautions. They are risking their own lives to save people who are not taking the disease seriously enough to take precautions. They are stressed out, nearly burnt out. Your own position is very much out of character for what you claim to be.

The Righteous Mind. Jonathon Hait.
Last edited by Bob Butler on Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

The above conversation is interesting enough, but it seems centered on me rather than societal collapse. If anyone would care to create another thread at a more appropriate place, I'm game.

FullMoon
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by FullMoon »

It is quite interesting indeed.
Please remember this thread was intended as a book club of sorts.
There's a book for sale. Proceeds help keep this forum running. Please support by paying the modest fee, or donate more as some who probably have much less money than you do have already done.
Then maybe we can stay somewhat on topic and do the right thing which is supporting the founder of this theory which draws us all together in discussion.

Cool Breeze
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

Yes, good reminder Full Moon.

Notice Bob always projecting his beliefs on others. Not knowing one bit of reality. A very common method of the warped leftist mind.

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