Societal collapse

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Trevor
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Trevor »

When it comes to climate change, I believe it in the sense that the world is getting warmer and we are at a minimum contributing to it. What I reject are all the claims of an imminent apocalypse and that the only way to avoid it is do all these drastic things that happen to give these people absolute power.

Considering all the things that were supposed to happen by now, like 50 million climate refugees, pacific nations completely underwater, over 2C temperature rise, and so on. It's certainly a problem, but not our top problem, or even our top environmental issue. I think more about the million every year in poor countries that die of indoor air pollution. This isn't a hypothetical about what could happen: this is happening here and now. However, you can't score political points mentioning it.

Cool Breeze
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

If John is right, the world is going to get a lot "warmer" soon, lol

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Cool Breeze wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:07 pm
Notice Bob always projecting his beliefs on others. Not knowing one bit of reality. A very common method of the warped leftist mind.
And you guys aren't projecting your straw man thoughts about how liberals believe? You are still into tribal thinking, and need to build up xenophobia to generate lots of hatred against the rival tribe. You just don't understand the nature of WEIRD thinking, loyalty to principles like equality, democracy and human rights. You have more fun hating.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

Trevor wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:39 pm
When it comes to climate change, I believe it in the sense that the world is getting warmer and we are at a minimum contributing to it. What I reject are all the claims of an imminent apocalypse and that the only way to avoid it is do all these drastic things that happen to give these people absolute power.

Considering all the things that were supposed to happen by now, like 50 million climate refugees, pacific nations completely underwater, over 2C temperature rise, and so on. It's certainly a problem, but not our top problem, or even our top environmental issue. I think more about the million every year in poor countries that die of indoor air pollution. This isn't a hypothetical about what could happen: this is happening here and now. However, you can't score political points mentioning it.
I will acknowledge that some in favor of fighting climate change are into exaggeration. In order to shake an involvement in a problem which has not come to a head yet, they exaggerate which gives the deniers a chance to speak against them. Since hurricanes have become more numerous and the fires more of a problem on the west coast, it seems the need to exaggerate is less.

I would bid you to remember that particle pollution results in global dimming. The particles block sunlight from coming through the atmosphere. They are a cooling effect tugging in the opposite direction from the production of greenhouse gas. When the Asian countries become aware of how particle pollution is increasing health care cost, that is is cost effective to spend the money to put particle pollution suppressors on the stacks, a significant cooling influence will disappear. Life will suddenly get warmer.

I am hoping that by that point the switch over to the hypothetical fusion is underway.

FullMoon
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by FullMoon »

I love Bob's blanket generalizations about how "we" readers whom he refers to as"reds" all think and act.
Really? Paints the picture of whacko.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

FullMoon wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:07 pm
I love Bob's blanket generalizations about how "we" readers whom he refers to as"reds" all think and act.
Really? Paints the picture of whacko.
Oh, there are many trends of conservative thought that are quite honorable. I hope they survive. Still, enough unfortunate thought has crept in that they have wound up on the wrong side of the crisis. The greatest problems a culture faces are attacked in a crisis, and the Republicans have ties with them all. If the arrow of progress that has held throughout the American crises holds - democracy, human rights and equality - then the Republicans have come to stand for autocracy, oppression of minorities and the supremacy of racists. sexists and elites. Not good. Now, not all people hang with the Republicans to further these things. Many who do do not advertise that fact. But Trump is a poison and a loser.

Some Republicans who are trying to oppose Trumpism are talking about forming a new party. I can much applaud what they want to do, but they will in the short term only split the Republican vote. I can see a fight as various folk contest over the remnants of the Republican Party. While this fight is going on, it will be difficult to build up a big enough tent to contest seriously with the Democrats. In a way, Trump retaining a big influence on the typical rural voter is a plus. As long as he keeps hold of these voters, as long as the fight is underway, the Democrats can hold their crisis and high.

The awakening? By that time the science will be clear enough and Trump forgotten.
Last edited by Bob Butler on Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cool Breeze
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Cool Breeze »

FullMoon wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:07 pm
I love Bob's blanket generalizations about how "we" readers whom he refers to as"reds" all think and act.
Really? Paints the picture of whacko.
Of course, you caught him again projecting what he does on other people. These people live in clown world.

FullMoon
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by FullMoon »

You have singled out republicans. No mention on democrats.
Both sides have
"come to stand for autocracy, oppression of minorities and the supremacy of racists. sexists and elites"
But really, everyone is past that to some degree and perpetuating the myth seems to be your current vocation.
Example :
My "gun toting" uncle. Republican and conservative credentials. Retired army. 2 sons Marine veterans. Favorite granddaughter "becomes" a boy at age 15. It's a difficult transition for any family. But now it's accepted. She's a he. Yes, it's Left coast. But still.
Bob, your grandiose pronouncements are not tethered in the reality Americans live and breathe from my perspective. Yes, you are intellectually astute and have copious amounts of free time to engage us. But experience it is you are lacking, from my perspective.

John
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by John »

A racist post was removed and transferred to the Strauss-Howe thread.

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Bob Butler
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Re: Societal collapse

Post by Bob Butler »

(I don’t believe any of the below involves race at all, but it does answer the criticism made in this thread that my views are clownish. I would request that John move posts to the Criticisms of Generational Dynamics thread, as my post has nothing to do with Strauss and Howe.)

I have done a lot of digging about the difference between the red and blue cultures. On book is cultural, The Cousin’s War, by Kevin Phillips. It talks about the roundhead who settled near Boston and the cavaliers who settled in the south. It views the English Civil War, the US Revolution and the US Civil Wars as part to the same conflict between the urban industrial culture and the rural agricultural one. Well, that conflict didn’t end with the US Civil War. While the cavalier culture has contributed mightily to the United States, it occasionally bumps into the roundheads. When it does, the cavaliers tend to loose. The urban people see the problems confronting the culture first, and determine what changes must be made. Come the crisis, they are made.

The Weirdest People in the World, by Joseph Henrich, looks at things from a mental structure point of view. (WEIRD would be Western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic.) If you do a lot of reading, your mind becomes oriented more towards abstract ideas such as democracy, human rights and equality. On the other hand, the world has more commonly been tribal in the past. These people are more aware of interactions between people, but their perspective is more on dividing between us and them and often emphasizing dominating them. You see this a lot around here, with the assumption that xenophobia dominates and conflicts between cultures are inevitable. This reflects a lack of awareness that much of the world has moved on, is no longer thinking that the aggressive way cultures have behaved in the past will continue.

I am currently working my way through anther book, The Righteous Mind by Johnathan Haidt. This is from a moral psychologist’s point of view. People will handle moral problems quickly, emotionally, decisively. The rational part of the mind just justifies what the emotional part has already decided. He compares it to an emotional elephant with a rational rider… who can’t do a thing about what the elephant intuitively decides. My variation asserts the rational part of the mind will edit out any facts which oppose whatever decision the more emotional instinctive moral part of the mind has already decided. Thus, people will assert their moral indignation and as often as not let the facts get in their way.

You put these views together and the picture of the red - blue divide gets complex. Each book, and many others, contribute one facet of the problem. You can claim it unusual, and it is around here. You can’t say it is not well researched.

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