Greece

Topics related to current and historical events occurring in various countries and regions
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StilesBC
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 pm

Greece

Post by StilesBC »

Rioting, looting, mass demonstrations, now a general strike. I don't know much about Greece, but I'm assuming they're on the same generational timeline as other Russian Orthodox nations. Am I correct on that, John? Or are they closer to the western WWII timeline?

I do find their position an interesting one. Being orthodox and a member of NATO. Not sure what kind of can of worms that could open up... Huntington mentioned Greece as a problem for that reason in "Clash of Civilizations".

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ional/home

Matt1989
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:30 am

Re: Greece

Post by Matt1989 »

StilesBC wrote:Rioting, looting, mass demonstrations, now a general strike. I don't know much about Greece, but I'm assuming they're on the same generational timeline as other Russian Orthodox nations. Am I correct on that, John? Or are they closer to the western WWII timeline?

I do find their position an interesting one. Being orthodox and a member of NATO. Not sure what kind of can of worms that could open up... Huntington mentioned Greece as a problem for that reason in "Clash of Civilizations".

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ional/home
Right now, I think Greece is in a 5th turning, with the last crisis being World War One and the Greco-Turkish war that involved genocidal acts on both sides.
(I believe the Greek Civil War in the 40s occurred during the early days of a 2T.)

I find the riots to be fascinating just because they are so radical and this is new territory from a generational standpoint. If my analysis is right (and I think it is), then the protestors are a mix of Civics and especially "would-be Adaptives." When John analyzed Robert Pape's Dying to Win he found that most suicide bombers come from 5th turning countries and are from this post-Civic generation. I inquired at the time what things would look like if the country had different concerns, and I think we're seeing it now. John called this generation "super-Nomads" but I don't think it fits. The Nomad/Reactive tendency is to shrug shoulders and get some fun with the thing. These kids, on the other hand, mean business.

Anyway, it looks like it may be dying down, but I think it may be a harbinger of things to come.

StilesBC
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: Greece

Post by StilesBC »

Right now, I think Greece is in a 5th turning, with the last crisis being World War One and the Greco-Turkish war that involved genocidal acts on both sides.
(I believe the Greek Civil War in the 40s occurred during the early days of a 2T.)

I find the riots to be fascinating just because they are so radical and this is new territory from a generational standpoint. If my analysis is right (and I think it is), then the protestors are a mix of Civics and especially "would-be Adaptives." When John analyzed Robert Pape's Dying to Win he found that most suicide bombers come from 5th turning countries and are from this post-Civic generation. I inquired at the time what things would look like if the country had different concerns, and I think we're seeing it now. John called this generation "super-Nomads" but I don't think it fits. The Nomad/Reactive tendency is to shrug shoulders and get some fun with the thing. These kids, on the other hand, mean business.

Anyway, it looks like it may be dying down, but I think it may be a harbinger of things to come.
Very interesting. Can you expand on what you mean by "civic generation," "post-civic generation," and "adaptives?" Are they synonyms for generational archtypes? Or are they European titles for current generations. I'm a bit limited in my knowledge of Generational theory outside of what I've read on John's site and in the fourth turning.

Thanks,

StilesBC

John
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Re: Greece

Post by John »

Dear Matt,
Matt1989 wrote: > Right now, I think Greece is in a 5th turning, with the last
> crisis being World War One and the Greco-Turkish war that involved
> genocidal acts on both sides. (I believe the Greek Civil War in
> the 40s occurred during the early days of a 2T.)
You may be right, but the period from 1967-74 has to be looked at
closely.

Sincerely,

John

Matt1989
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:30 am

Re: Greece

Post by Matt1989 »

StilesBC wrote: Very interesting. Can you expand on what you mean by "civic generation," "post-civic generation," and "adaptives?" Are they synonyms for generational archtypes? Or are they European titles for current generations. I'm a bit limited in my knowledge of Generational theory outside of what I've read on John's site and in the fourth turning.
Strauss and Howe, in Generations, used the Adaptive/Idealist/Reactive/Civic archetypal cycle, but they later substituted it for the Artist/Prophet/Nomad/Hero cycle in The Fourth Turning. I normally prefer the first set of words since they don't carry the same emotional baggage, but the second set seems suited for a Crisis era.

The post-civic/Hero generation is what John labeled "super-nomads." They are born and raised in a fourth turning generational era, but for some reason or another, the expected crisis hasn't materialized. Thus, these would-be adaptives/Artists have a different collective mentality then your average Artists do. John's written at least one article about them on this website, but I believe most stuff is still boxed away in the Fourth Turning Forums.

Matt1989
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:30 am

Re: Greece

Post by Matt1989 »

John wrote:Dear Matt,
Matt1989 wrote: > Right now, I think Greece is in a 5th turning, with the last
> crisis being World War One and the Greco-Turkish war that involved
> genocidal acts on both sides. (I believe the Greek Civil War in
> the 40s occurred during the early days of a 2T.)
You may be right, but the period from 1967-74 has to be looked at
closely.

Sincerely,

John
I actually think it's pretty consistent for an early Unraveling period, if a little on the violent side. But consider the WWI era (and the next few years) as a parallel to the U.S.

StilesBC
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 pm

Re: Greece

Post by StilesBC »

Strauss and Howe, in Generations, used the Adaptive/Idealist/Reactive/Civic archetypal cycle, but they later substituted it for the Artist/Prophet/Nomad/Hero cycle in The Fourth Turning. I normally prefer the first set of words since they don't carry the same emotional baggage, but the second set seems suited for a Crisis era.

The post-civic/Hero generation is what John labeled "super-nomads." They are born and raised in a fourth turning generational era, but for some reason or another, the expected crisis hasn't materialized. Thus, these would-be adaptives/Artists have a different collective mentality then your average Artists do. John's written at least one article about them on this website, but I believe most stuff is still boxed away in the Fourth Turning Forums.
Thanks. I agree. Those terms are probably more accurate in describing archetypes. But in a 4T, I suppose the others work well also.

John
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Re: Greece

Post by John »

Dear Matt,
Matt1989 wrote: > Right now, I think Greece is in a 5th turning, with the last
> crisis being World War One and the Greco-Turkish war that involved
> genocidal acts on both sides. (I believe the Greek Civil War in
> the 40s occurred during the early days of a 2T.)
John wrote: > You may be right, but the period from 1967-74 has to be looked at
> closely.
Matt1989 wrote: > I actually think it's pretty consistent for an early Unraveling
> period, if a little on the violent side. But consider the WWI era
> (and the next few years) as a parallel to the U.S.
You may well be right, and I hope to have a chance to do some real
research on Greece at some point. (My parents would be so proud!)

However, I have to tell you that I'm very suspicious about calling
Greece's current era a fifth turning. Even though I did all the
theoretical development on fifth turnings, I'm probably almost as
skeptical about them as others are.

There are major examples of countries in fifth turnings today --
Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Russia. What ties these three countries
together is an enormous amount of revenue coming from oil.

In other words, what I'm saying is that one factor that can permit a
country to get through a fourth turning with no crisis war is having
lots of money. Another factor is a sparse, well-fed population.

But I know of no such factor in Greece in recent decades. Greece has
a fairly dense population with a lot of economic problems. I just
don't see how it's possible for Greece to be in a fifth turning
today.

I've been paying little attention to the Greek riots going on, but
unless they spiral out of control, the little I have been reading
indicates to me an Awakening era type situation with outside
protesters. One possible comparison would be to al-Qaeda in Iraq's
attempt, in an Awakening era, to foment a civil war in Iraq, which
fizzled quickly as the Iraqi people drove the fomenters out.

Sincerely,

John

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