Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

Seoul Guest wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:58 pm

thomasglee wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:48 pm

FullMoon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:03 pm

Would you gamble they'd give up their current lifestyle for one more closely aligned with the Chinese as their brethren in the North? Those who survive that long to enjoy their insects and plagues, of course.

It depends on what security guarantees (promises) are made. Throughout history the emperor of Korea was emperor in Korea, yet when he would go to Peking, he was only recognized as a prince. I could see a similar situation lining up today. The leader of Korea would be the leader of Korea, but would know he is subservient to the leadership in China. I could see China forcing the unification of Korea under southern leadership. Or perhaps keeping Korea divided, but allowing SK to use NK’s cheap labor. We have to remember that Korea was always divided along clans. Even today in South Korea the country is divided in many ways and in many ways they still view their clan as more important than anything else. You have Kyungjoo Kim’s and Challado Lee’s for example. It’s hard to explain if you’re not familiar with the natural divisions that already and historically exist. We tend to look at Koreans as all being the same, but they’re not.

I grew up in Korea and after a long sojourn abroad, I now live in Korea again.

Thomas, you do not know Korean history or understand the culture.

Korea's king became an Emperor in the 1890s to breakaway from China and stop paying tribute to the Chinese Emperor. The Korean emperor was never treated as a prince when he visited Beijing.

You see China and both Koreas doing things that will never happen. I realize that you consider yourself "an expert" on Korea, but you are not.

Korea will not join forces with the CCP and fight japan. That would mean becoming part of China forever. Koreans hate the Chinese and look down on them as backward and dirty country hicks. There are other dimensions to any potential Korean-Chinese alliance which you have obviously not considered. South Korea will side never against America. And, as hard as it may be for you to believe, Japan would be chosen over China because it is a liberal democracy. Koreans have fought hard to become a democracy, do you think South Koreans would throw all that away to sell a few more cars or smartphones?

Chinese are buying thousands of properties across South Korea and driving up prices here even further (like the Russians in London). Chinese often behave poorly in public and often resort to violence against South Koreans, including murder (in recent high profile cases). Koreans will not take on the Chinese yoke again.

I find your analysis of Asia to be deeply flawed and fantastical.

thomasglee wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:50 am

Seoul Guest wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:58 pm

thomasglee wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:48 pm

It depends on what security guarantees (promises) are made. Throughout history the emperor of Korea was emperor in Korea, yet when he would go to Peking, he was only recognized as a prince. I could see a similar situation lining up today. The leader of Korea would be the leader of Korea, but would know he is subservient to the leadership in China. I could see China forcing the unification of Korea under southern leadership. Or perhaps keeping Korea divided, but allowing SK to use NK’s cheap labor. We have to remember that Korea was always divided along clans. Even today in South Korea the country is divided in many ways and in many ways they still view their clan as more important than anything else. You have Kyungjoo Kim’s and Challado Lee’s for example. It’s hard to explain if you’re not familiar with the natural divisions that already and historically exist. We tend to look at Koreans as all being the same, but they’re not.

I grew up in Korea and after a long sojourn abroad, I now live in Korea again.

Thomas, you do not know Korean history or understand the culture.

Korea's king became an Emperor in the 1890s to breakaway from China and stop paying tribute to the Chinese Emperor. The Korean emperor was never treated as a prince when he visited Beijing.

You see China and both Koreas doing things that will never happen. I realize that you consider yourself "an expert" on Korea, but you are not.

Korea will not join forces with the CCP and fight japan. That would mean becoming part of China forever. Koreans hate the Chinese and look down on them as backward and dirty country hicks. There are other dimensions to any potential Korean-Chinese alliance which you have obviously not considered. South Korea will side never against America. And, as hard as it may be for you to believe, Japan would be chosen over China because it is a liberal democracy. Koreans have fought hard to become a democracy, do you think South Koreans would throw all that away to sell a few more cars or smartphones?

Chinese are buying thousands of properties across South Korea and driving up prices here even further (like the Russians in London). Chinese often behave poorly in public and often resort to violence against South Koreans, including murder (in recent high profile cases). Koreans will not take on the Chinese yoke again.

I find your analysis of Asia to be deeply flawed and fantastical.

I never claim to be an "expert", just a casual, unbiased observer and student.

Joseon (Korea) was a tributary state of the Manchus and then the Qing Empire from 1636 until 1876. They paid tribute from time to time to the Yuan and Ming dynasties and were therefore, in affect, a Chinese vassal. It is well known, historically, the subservient position Korea took with China.

I know what Koreans think of the Chinese (and all "non-Koreans"). I do not disagree with you at all on that point. Yes, Korea has a strong, but (understandably strained) relationship with Japan, but do not underestimate what a country (or at least its leaders) will do to maintain any semblance of independence or even just to survive. Korea sits in an unenviable and precarious position and always has, being sandwiched between Japan and China. Survival is in their best interest and that's why I believe they will act in the manner in which I described.

I admit I may be wrong, but only time will tell. Frankly, I hope we never need to find out, but if things go down the way I think they might, nobody should be surprised. History does repeat and there is a lot of recorded history in northeast Asia which can be studied.

Don't be offended, I love the Korean people and the Korean culture as it was a major part of my life for over half my life. I do not want to see anything bad happen to Korea or its people and I don't want to see Korea crushed in a war between China and the west.

I never claim to be an "expert", just a casual, unbiased observer and student.

Joseon (Korea) was a tributary state of the Manchus and then the Qing Empire from 1636 until 1876. They paid tribute from time to time to the Yuan and Ming dynasties and were therefore, in affect, a Chinese vassal. It is well known, historically, the subservient position Korea took with China.

I know what Koreans think of the Chinese (and all "non-Koreans"). I do not disagree with you at all on that point.

but do not underestimate what a country (or at least its leaders) will do to maintain any semblance of independence or even just to survive. Korea sits in an unenviable and precarious position and always has, being sandwiched between Japan and China. Survival is in their best interest and that's why I believe they will act in the manner in which I described.

Don't be offended, I love the Korean people and the Korean culture as it was a major part of my life for over half my life.

Seoul Guest wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:41 am

thomasglee wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:50 am

Seoul Guest wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:58 pm

I grew up in Korea and after a long sojourn abroad, I now live in Korea again.

Thomas, you do not know Korean history or understand the culture.

Korea's king became an Emperor in the 1890s to breakaway from China and stop paying tribute to the Chinese Emperor. The Korean emperor was never treated as a prince when he visited Beijing.

You see China and both Koreas doing things that will never happen. I realize that you consider yourself "an expert" on Korea, but you are not.

Korea will not join forces with the CCP and fight japan. That would mean becoming part of China forever. Koreans hate the Chinese and look down on them as backward and dirty country hicks. There are other dimensions to any potential Korean-Chinese alliance which you have obviously not considered. South Korea will side never against America. And, as hard as it may be for you to believe, Japan would be chosen over China because it is a liberal democracy. Koreans have fought hard to become a democracy, do you think South Koreans would throw all that away to sell a few more cars or smartphones?

Chinese are buying thousands of properties across South Korea and driving up prices here even further (like the Russians in London). Chinese often behave poorly in public and often resort to violence against South Koreans, including murder (in recent high profile cases). Koreans will not take on the Chinese yoke again.

I find your analysis of Asia to be deeply flawed and fantastical.

I never claim to be an "expert", just a casual, unbiased observer and student.

Joseon (Korea) was a tributary state of the Manchus and then the Qing Empire from 1636 until 1876. They paid tribute from time to time to the Yuan and Ming dynasties and were therefore, in affect, a Chinese vassal. It is well known, historically, the subservient position Korea took with China.

I know what Koreans think of the Chinese (and all "non-Koreans"). I do not disagree with you at all on that point. Yes, Korea has a strong, but (understandably strained) relationship with Japan, but do not underestimate what a country (or at least its leaders) will do to maintain any semblance of independence or even just to survive. Korea sits in an unenviable and precarious position and always has, being sandwiched between Japan and China. Survival is in their best interest and that's why I believe they will act in the manner in which I described.

I admit I may be wrong, but only time will tell. Frankly, I hope we never need to find out, but if things go down the way I think they might, nobody should be surprised. History does repeat and there is a lot of recorded history in northeast Asia which can be studied.

Don't be offended, I love the Korean people and the Korean culture as it was a major part of my life for over half my life. I do not want to see anything bad happen to Korea or its people and I don't want to see Korea crushed in a war between China and the west.

I never claim to be an "expert", just a casual, unbiased observer and student.

You are far from unbiased in anything.

Joseon (Korea) was a tributary state of the Manchus and then the Qing Empire from 1636 until 1876. They paid tribute from time to time to the Yuan and Ming dynasties and were therefore, in affect, a Chinese vassal. It is well known, historically, the subservient position Korea took with China.

Joseon Korea was not ruled by an emperor. You couldn't even get that right. This is an important distinction for Koreans.

I know what Koreans think of the Chinese (and all "non-Koreans"). I do not disagree with you at all on that point.

I only mentioned the CCP Chinese (not Taiwanese, Hong Kongers, Singaporeans, or other non CCP Chinese, or did you think I was worried about South Korea being attacked by Taiwan?), yet you claim to know what Koreans think of all other races. Do you really? You are far from being an expert on Koreans or anything else.

but do not underestimate what a country (or at least its leaders) will do to maintain any semblance of independence or even just to survive. Korea sits in an unenviable and precarious position and always has, being sandwiched between Japan and China. Survival is in their best interest and that's why I believe they will act in the manner in which I described.

You have not studied Korean history if you write something like this. Koreans value their independence more than anything else. If you have studied Korean history as you say you have, you would not write such a statement. You make Koreans out to be cowards. Koreans are not.

Don't be offended, I love the Korean people and the Korean culture as it was a major part of my life for over half my life.

How could I not be offended? You write false and defamatory things about Koreans and they say you love Koreans? Foreigners like you are the norm here. You claim to "know Korea", but you obviously do not. Almost every foreigner here I meet claims to "know Korea" to varying degrees. it would be laughable if it were not so damaging. I remain deeply offended by your statements. You don't know Korean history at all. Your understanding of Korean history is only cursory. You call Koreans cowards and they say you love Korea. Your analysis is as flawed as your knowledge of Korean history. I have lived in Western countries for decades, I do not claim to be an expert on any of those countries. I lived in America for over two decades, I don't consider Americans to be cowards and cockroaches desperate to survive by any means. Koreans are warriors and Koreans have proven that throughout history.

thomasglee wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:56 pm > Whatever dude.

John wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:37 pm ** 10-Jun-2022 World View: Generational History of Korea

thomasglee wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:56 pm > Whatever dude.

I was in the hospital much of the past week (leg infection), and when
I came back I saw this dispute about Korea. I don't claim to have
anything like the knowledge of the Korean people that Seoul Guest and
Thomas Lee have, but I did spend several months doing research for my
book on "War between China and Japan," and I developed some definite
opinions about the generational history of Korea. The following are
some edited excerpts from stuff that I've written about Korea.

**** Vassal relationship

Historically, Korea has never been an ally of China. Korea has always
been a vassal, in a tributary relationship with China, meaning that
Korea paid China a great deal of money, usually gold and slaves, in
return for guarantees of defense from outsiders (i.e., Japan).
Although China does not directly govern the vassal, China expects the
vassal to do as it's told.

After World War II, North Korea alone took on the role of China's
vassal, and called on China to be its principal defender in the Korean
war of the early 1950s.

North Korea paid tribute to China not in the form of gold and slaves,
but in the form of massive amounts of coal and "workers," both of
which are also used to provide financial aid to North Korea.

However, relations between China and North Korea took a hostile turn
in October 2006, when North Korea began testing nuclear weapons.
North Korea did not do as it was told, and China punished North Korea
by agreeing to United Nations sanctions targeting North Korea.

**** Battle of Myongnyang (Myeongnyang), October 26, 1597

Arguably the most important European battle in the last millennium was
the fall of Constantinople and the defeat of the Christian Byzantine
Empire by the Muslim Ottomans in 1453.

In my opinion, the most important battle in Asia in the last
millennium (prior to WW II) was the Battle of Myongnyang
(Myeongnyang), October 26, 1597, because it was so crushing and so
climactic that it must have been well remembered for centuries -- with
glee by the Koreans and Chinese, and with humiliation by the Japanese
-- and would have had a strong visceral influence on the events
following the Taiping Rebellion and the Meiji Restoration.

Japan's samurai army general Toyotomi Hideyoshi launched his second
invasion of Korea on August 27, 1597, with a force of 100,000 soldiers
in 1000 ships to reinforce the 50,000 troops left behind in Korea
after the first invasion. The climax was the Battle of Myongnyang on
October 26. Admiral Yi's small contingent of twelve ships destroyed
133 Japanese vessels without any Korean losses. Admiral Yi achieved
this victory after luring the Japanese fleet into a narrow channel and
using the swift currents to his advantage. This victory prevented the
Japanese navy from entering the Yellow Sea and re-supplying its army
trying to advance towards Seoul.

The Koreans won a brilliant naval victory against the Japanese navy,
using technologically advanced "turtle ships," believed to be the
world's first ironclad warship. A Korean contingent of 12 ships lured
a Japanese force of hundreds of ships into a narrow channel and
destroyed 133 Japanese vessels without any Korean losses. Even today,
the battle is described in mythic terms, as an almost miraculous
victory by Korean Admiral Yi Sun-sin,

Joseon Korea became increasingly isolationist after defeating Japan,
and was defeated in 1637 by an invading army by the Manchus in China
who were forming the Qing dynasty, forcing Josean Korean to submit
once more to a tributary relationship with the Manchus in China.

After the climax of the war, both China and Japan went into a kind of
"hibernation," with the Manchus taking charge in China, and the
Tokugawa clan taking charge in Japan, and Korea in a tributary
relationship with China. This stayed the same for over three
centuries, until Britain initiated the Opium Wars with China, and
American Commodore Matthew Perry visited Japan in 1853, forcing it to
open its ports to the west.

Japan left Korea alone for three centuries after the humiliating
defeat at Myongnyang, until the Japanese Empire won the Russo-Japanese
war (1905), when there was a Peace Conference at Portsmouth in the
USA, which began on August 10, 1905, presided over by US president
Theodore Roosevelt. One of the outcomes of that peace conference was
that, despite appeals from Korea, Roosevelt awarded Korea to Japan as
one of the spoils of war. So Korea became a colony of Japan until
1945. According to what I've read, the period of colonization was
generally positive for Korea, and they are not bitter about it, except
for the issue of comfort women.

**** The Goguryeo Stele

In January 2013, an ancient memorial stone or gravestone, the Goguryeo
stele, was unearthed in northeast China. This discovery reopened an
explosive dispute between China and South Korea over whether the
Goguryeo Kingdom (37-688) was really Korean, or whether it was
actually governed by China with a Korean population. In the latter
case, it would mean that part of North Korea is really China's.

Historical records indicate that the Goguryeo (Koguryo) Kingdom was
founded in northern Korea in 37 AD. The kingdom grew through
conquest, and it saw its greatest period during the reign of
Gwanggaeto (391-413), when it dominated northern Korea, most of
Manchuria, and a portion of Inner Mongolia -- including parts of
northeastern China and Russia's Far East. Goguryeo was one of the
three kingdoms of ancient Korea, along with Baekjae and Silla.

China's Sui dynasty launched a series of attacks on the Goguryeo
kingdom, starting in 598 and again in 611, and was pushed back both
times.

The war between the Sui and the Goguryeo empire climaxed in 612, with
a massive Sui army invasion of Korea. When the Koreans under general
Ulchi Mundok won a great victory against the Chinese with the Battle
of the Salsu River (612). According to legend, of the 300,000-strong
Sui army, only 2,700 returned to China. Two more attacks were
rebuffed in 613 and 614 and Goguryeo built a 480-km (300 miles) long
defensive wall in 628 CE so as to deter any further Chinese ambitions.

**** Korea vs China and Japan

Throughout Korea's history, they were either a colony of Japan or a
vassal state of China. I'm not sure which is worse. So which side
would Korea choose to fight against -- Japan or Korea? I get the
feeling that they would rather be like Switzerland, and try to stay
neutral as long as possible.

Historically, Korea has been a Chinese vassal state, forced to pay
tribute to China. So the Koreans hate both the Japanese and the
Chinese. How this will all unfold once war breaks out will not be
pleasant. Those missiles and nuclear weapons that the North Koreans
are developing will be targeting Japan, South Korea and America.
South and North Korea will be in a full scale ground war. Japan and
America will be striking back at both North Korea and China.

The mutual hatred of the Japanese and Korean people goes very deep.
Korea has been the staging ground for earlier invasions by both China
and Japan against one another — for example, Kublai Khan's invasions
of Japan in 1274 and 1281 or Toyotomi Hideyoshi's attempts to invade
Ming China via Korea in 1592 and 1597.

During much of the last two millennia, Korea has been a vassal state
of China, in a tributary relationship, meaning that Korea paid China a
great deal of money, usually gold and slaves, in return for guarantees
of defense from outsiders (i.e., Japan).

If you look at history, there is no reason why the Koreans should have
any great love for China. To the contrary, China has always treated
Korea contemptuously, as a vassal.

The North Koreans are in a difficult place. They are stuck with
China, because they want to conquer South Korea. But the North
Koreans have a love-hate relationship with China. They've totally
become vassals to China, which the North Koreans hate. Even worse,
North Korea is a country with one of the 22 border disputes with
China, and China claims a portion of northwest North Korea as
sovereign Chinese territory, as described above with the Goguryeo
Stele.

John Xenakis is author of: "World View: War Between China and Japan:
Why America Must Be Prepared" (Generational Theory Book Series, Book
2), June 2019 Paperback: 331 pages, over 200 source references, $13.99
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/pg/ ... s.scbk.htm
https://www.amazon.com/World-View-Betwe ... 732738637/