Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

Bob Butler wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:13 am
Traditionally at peak crisis by S&H
standard, the progressive side wins and
the conservative side degenerates. The
ideals held by the conservatives fall
apart, and the solutions to the crisis
problems become new values. Yes, this
looks different from a conservative
perspective, but this is how America
grows.

John wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:24 pmHuh?

Bob Butler wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:07 pm

John wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:24 pmHuh?

On Earth One, where we have to deal with reality, the Revolution was about negating noble privilege and freeing the country from colonial imperialism. The Civil War was about freedom for the slaves and industrial over agricultural political power. In FDR’s time progressives wanted to regulate an otherwise failing economy and formalize containment.

You really ought to make a study of history. You seem to find it convenient to forget what the crises were about when it conflicts with your ideology. Putting ideology ahead of history is a good route to a badly flawed understanding of the issues.

There is a confusion with respect to the word ’socialism’. In Europe, its meaning is to help the people. On the other hand, Communists called themselves socialists, but worked to maximize the wealth and influence of themselves. I would of course favor the first meaning and treat the second as propaganda. I’d rather, however, avoid the doubly defined word ‘socialism’. Your position seems to be that working for the people is a crime. That may be your position, but not the progressive position.

The idea that Democrats hate capitalism and are pedophiles are the result of conservatives believing their own lies. You live in a blue place. What evidence to you have of the demonic and baby eating lies? If you can’t criticize the actual policies, you are stuck embracing zero evidence lies? I expect that of others here, a path to take when they are unable to defend supposed positions, but you are usually better than that. Spouting lies just discredits the meaningful aspects of your theories.

Strauss and Howe were conservatives. They initially believed and celebrated that their theory was not ideological. They did not seem to notice that the side pushing change came out ahead in each of their crises. I remember at the Nashville meeting convincing Strauss that their cycle was not a circle but a spiral, that after each crisis American values grew and improved to include the lessons learned from the just completed crisis: independence… freedom… containment. Shortly after that, Strauss warned that crises could be violent and upsetting. Well, yes. The no change faction attempted to preserve things like colonial imperialism, noble privilege and slavery. The very American values of independence and freedom Strauss prized initially were afterwards viewed as risking change.

I see three turnings as stagnant - high, awakening and unraveling - with only the crisis peak favoring change and progress. My crystal ball shows Putin, Xi, Trump and their followers collapsing into various disasters. The majority conservative House of Representatives is just the latest. You will have three turnings of stagnancy in which you can successfully resist change. It is just that at the crisis peak you should lay low. You should listen for the changes being demanded by the people and consider that they are likely reasonable. (Cops shouldn’t kill out of prejudice. Presidents responsible to uphold the law should respect it. Fact checking is necessary, not to be ignored. Elections and the peaceful transfer of power are features of democracy, not bugs.)

I won’t defend every Democratic policy through the recent unraveling and early crisis. Globalism was flawed and hurt American jobs. Campaign contributions were viewed as more important than votes, thus politicians of both parties were working more for the elites and corporations than the voters. Covid illustrated the need to produce necessary stuff inside the US. Unravellings are the time of maximum selfishness, of asking not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you. Go for profits for the elites rather than the good of the country. A crisis flips that.

Granted, civilizations rather than nations often come into conflict. There are core states centering things, with allies that share many values. Ukraine is one example, the Middle East another, Taiwan a third. People do not like being compelled to submit to another culture, but too many autocratic states do wish to compel other cultures. Containment exists in part to give the autocrats pause.

Prejudice and sexism seem to be a conservative constant. From lynching, to stealing native lands, to prohibiting asian women from immigrating to avoiding giving the Irish jobs, the elites have always wanted cheaper labor than those who were already here were willing to accept. Thus far, the elites have won out, encouraged immigration, and watched the angry deplorables cause minority pain. Thus far, this has worked roughly well for America, less well for the minorities. The cheap labor has become available, the deplorables inflamed. The object of the progressives is to get rid of the hate, oppression and pain.

On another note entirely, have you looked for a decent word processor? I use Apple’s TextEdit without any difficulty. Surely you could find something decent?

Guest wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:48 pm Boomer cuck manifesto, if I have ever read one.

Guest wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:48 pm

Bob Butler wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:07 pm

John wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:24 pmHuh?

On Earth One, where we have to deal with reality, the Revolution was about negating noble privilege and freeing the country from colonial imperialism. The Civil War was about freedom for the slaves and industrial over agricultural political power. In FDR’s time progressives wanted to regulate an otherwise failing economy and formalize containment.

You really ought to make a study of history. You seem to find it convenient to forget what the crises were about when it conflicts with your ideology. Putting ideology ahead of history is a good route to a badly flawed understanding of the issues.

There is a confusion with respect to the word ’socialism’. In Europe, its meaning is to help the people. On the other hand, Communists called themselves socialists, but worked to maximize the wealth and influence of themselves. I would of course favor the first meaning and treat the second as propaganda. I’d rather, however, avoid the doubly defined word ‘socialism’. Your position seems to be that working for the people is a crime. That may be your position, but not the progressive position.

The idea that Democrats hate capitalism and are pedophiles are the result of conservatives believing their own lies. You live in a blue place. What evidence to you have of the demonic and baby eating lies? If you can’t criticize the actual policies, you are stuck embracing zero evidence lies? I expect that of others here, a path to take when they are unable to defend supposed positions, but you are usually better than that. Spouting lies just discredits the meaningful aspects of your theories.

Strauss and Howe were conservatives. They initially believed and celebrated that their theory was not ideological. They did not seem to notice that the side pushing change came out ahead in each of their crises. I remember at the Nashville meeting convincing Strauss that their cycle was not a circle but a spiral, that after each crisis American values grew and improved to include the lessons learned from the just completed crisis: independence… freedom… containment. Shortly after that, Strauss warned that crises could be violent and upsetting. Well, yes. The no change faction attempted to preserve things like colonial imperialism, noble privilege and slavery. The very American values of independence and freedom Strauss prized initially were afterwards viewed as risking change.

I see three turnings as stagnant - high, awakening and unraveling - with only the crisis peak favoring change and progress. My crystal ball shows Putin, Xi, Trump and their followers collapsing into various disasters. The majority conservative House of Representatives is just the latest. You will have three turnings of stagnancy in which you can successfully resist change. It is just that at the crisis peak you should lay low. You should listen for the changes being demanded by the people and consider that they are likely reasonable. (Cops shouldn’t kill out of prejudice. Presidents responsible to uphold the law should respect it. Fact checking is necessary, not to be ignored. Elections and the peaceful transfer of power are features of democracy, not bugs.)

I won’t defend every Democratic policy through the recent unraveling and early crisis. Globalism was flawed and hurt American jobs. Campaign contributions were viewed as more important than votes, thus politicians of both parties were working more for the elites and corporations than the voters. Covid illustrated the need to produce necessary stuff inside the US. Unravellings are the time of maximum selfishness, of asking not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you. Go for profits for the elites rather than the good of the country. A crisis flips that.

Granted, civilizations rather than nations often come into conflict. There are core states centering things, with allies that share many values. Ukraine is one example, the Middle East another, Taiwan a third. People do not like being compelled to submit to another culture, but too many autocratic states do wish to compel other cultures. Containment exists in part to give the autocrats pause.

Prejudice and sexism seem to be a conservative constant. From lynching, to stealing native lands, to prohibiting asian women from immigrating to avoiding giving the Irish jobs, the elites have always wanted cheaper labor than those who were already here were willing to accept. Thus far, the elites have won out, encouraged immigration, and watched the angry deplorables cause minority pain. Thus far, this has worked roughly well for America, less well for the minorities. The cheap labor has become available, the deplorables inflamed. The object of the progressives is to get rid of the hate, oppression and pain.

On another note entirely, have you looked for a decent word processor? I use Apple’s TextEdit without any difficulty. Surely you could find something decent?

Boomer cuck manifesto, if I have ever read one.

Butler is long in the tooth, so he won't be here for the cannibal collapse (or maybe he will be). I hope he is.

John wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:24 pm What you have to remember is that
Strauss and Howe were solid members of
the Democrat party, and so much of their
interpretation of their theory doesn't
make sense because it is too
ideological.