Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
xakzen
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:59 am

Re: Financial topics

Post by xakzen »

gerald wrote: ...
The problem is we do not understand, or even know, all of the forces of nature.
And the "free energy device' may work do to a misunderstand of some area of physics.
...
This is a rather extraordinary claim not present in the advertisement. By investors I presume you mean the suckers who purchase this kit.
An example of this lack of understanding relates to gravity, there is evidence/questions regarding the uniformity of Earth's gravity over time."The Dinosaurs and the Gravity Problem" http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1913389/posts
I am always perplex when I see outwardly fervent people stooping to strained scientific arguments to substantiate their statements of faith. God created all the universe and everything in it I have no doubt. But the Bible states over and again that one can only come to the Father through faith alone. He has removed all His fingerprints from His creation save what is writ on the hearts of His chosen people. In my view one can only find doubt in such endeavors; for if you cannot prove God in science surely there are those who can disprove Him by inductive reasoning. Faith found through such proofs is doomed when new evidence arrives. That's why there are no serious Deists today. Quantum Mechanics doomed their Newtonian clockwork universe.
John
Posts: 11501
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Bears

Post by John »

Dear Higgie,
Higgenbotham wrote: > It seems to me that a higher potential for a panic selloff in the
> stock market exists at present than has existed at any time this
> year. Almost every bearish advisor or blogger that I read is
> looking for "one more wave up", or a "Santa Claus rally", etc.,
> then the long awaited move down. I don't see anyone pounding the
> table for the bearish case this week. Does anyone else have a link
> to someone who thinks a large move down is imminent? Yet, things
> have never looked more out of whack. Meanwhile, there seem to be a
> growing number of potential triggers out there. Granted, I was
> saying the same type of thing 4 months ago. I'm still short, by
> the way. Maybe I need to give up before the market will go down.
> My loss is up to 9% but I don't feel uncomfortable with that at
> this point given what I see.
Nobody is saying that a large move down is "imminent," but a number
of people are saying that it's coming next year.

Of course, as you say, they've been saying the same type of thing for
several moonths.
John Hussman wrote: > I should have assumed that Wall Street's tendency toward reckless
> myopia – ingrained over the past decade – would return at the
> first sign of even temporary stability. The eagerness of investors
> to chase prevailing trends, and their unwillingness to concern
> themselves with predictable longer-term risks, drove a successive
> series of speculative advances and crashes during the past decade
> – the dot-com bubble, the tech bubble, the mortgage bubble, the
> private-equity bubble, and the commodities bubble. And here we are
> again.

> We face two possible states of the world. One is a world in which
> our economic problems are largely solved, profits are on the mend,
> and things will soon be back to normal, except for a lot of
> unemployed people whose fate is, let's face it, of no concern to
> Wall Street. The other is a world that has enjoyed a brief
> intermission prior to a terrific second act in which an even
> larger share of credit losses will be taken, and in which the
> range of policy choices will be more restricted because we've
> already issued more government liabilities than a banana republic,
> and will steeply debase our currency if we do it again. It is not
> at all clear that the recent data have removed any uncertainty as
> to which world we are in.
> http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc091130.htm
David Rosenberg in 2010 Outlook wrote: > The credit collapse and the accompanying deflation and
> overcapacity are going to drive the economy and financial markets
> in 2010. We have said repeatedly that this recession is really a
> depression because the recessions of the post-WWII experience were
> merely small backward steps in an inventory cycle but in the
> context of expanding credit. Whereas now, we are in a prolonged
> period of credit contraction, especially as it relates to
> households and small businesses (as we highlighted in our small
> business sentiment write-up yesterday).

> In addition, we have characterized the rally in the economy and
> global equity markets appropriately as a bear market rally from
> the March lows, influenced by the heavy hand of government
> intervention and stimulus. But in classic Bob Farrell form, 2010
> may well be seen as the year in which we witness the inevitable
> drawn out decline that is typical of secular bear markets. ...

> The defining characteristic of this asset deflation and credit
> contraction has been the implosion of the largest balance sheet in
> the world — the U.S. household sector. Even with the bear market
> rally in equities and the tenuous recovery in housing in 2009, the
> reality is that household net worth has contracted nearly 20% over
> the past year-and-a-half, or an epic $12 trillion of lost net
> worth, a degree of trauma we have never seen before.

> As households begin to assess the shock and what it means for
> their retirement needs, the impact of this shocking loss of wealth
> on consumer spending patterns in the future is likely going to be
> very significant. Frugality is the new fashion and likely to stay
> that way for years as attitudes toward discretionary spending,
> homeownership and credit undergo a secular shift towards prudence
> and conservatism.

> http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-bl ... erStock%29
Bloomberg wrote: > Traders are boosting bets in the U.S. options market that this
> year’s rally in the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index won’t last.

> The fourth most-active options to sell the SPDR Trust Series 1
> yesterday were December 2010 $55 puts, contracts with so-called
> strike prices more than 50 percent below the cost of the
> exchange-traded fund known as the SPY. S&P 500 options to protect
> against losses in 2010 are 33 percent more expensive than
> one-month contracts, among the highest premiums in the past five
> years, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

> “The real news next year would be if we don’t get a 5-to
> 10-percent correction,” said Stephen Wood, who helps manage $170
> billion as chief market strategist for North America at Russell
> Investments in New York. “The rally since March has been all but
> uninterrupted.”
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... 9cBk&pos=6
Art Cashin appears frequently on CNBC, and his theory is that there
will be a geopolitical event that will cause a flight to safety,
resulting in a sharp strengthening of the dollar, resulting in a
reversal of the carry trade. Traders have been borrowing dollars and
investing in the stock market, thus pushing stock prices up. If the
dollar starts strengthening, then traders will have to sell their
stock positions to repay the dollars.

This is consistent with the article that I wrote in October:

** Nouriel Roubini apparently is predicting a global market crash
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 27#e091027


The problem today is that anyone who claims that the market will go
down looks like an idiot because the market keeps going up.

And what can anyone even say? Valuations (P/E ratios) based on
reported earnings are around 80. Valuations based on "operating
earnings" are around 30. Both figures are astronomically high, and
the market keeps going up. In order to argue that stocks are
overpriced, you have to have some kind of realistic basis from which
to launch your argument. But no realistic basis exists any more.

So I think that there are two kinds of people today, among the
financial analysts.

There are people like Laszlo Birinyi who live in a fantasy world.

** Laszlo Birinyi provides insight on his fantasy price/earnings computations
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 22#e090522


And there are people like the ones I quoted above who at least look
at some fundamentals. You cannot look at the fundamentals without
being a bear. The people who aren't bears are airheads.

We are in a deflationary spiral, and it is 100% certain that there
will be a major correction -- probably 30-40% to begin and then,
following the 1929-32 pattern, a further plunge to Dow 1500 or so over
the next few years. The shock will be much greater than it would have
been if the crash had been allowed to happen earlier.

John
Higgenbotham
Posts: 7990
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

This is a summary of what I think may have changed recently that may negatively impact the stock market soon.

1. Dubai. On July, 17, 2007, word leaked that about $12 billion in 2 Bear Stearns subprime mortgage based hedge funds had become worthless. The market dropped overnight and then recovered to one more new high before falling about 10% over the next month. After all, $12 billion is not really very much, so the first reaction of the market was to shrug it off. The problem, though, was that not only were Bear Stearns' subprime mortgage assets worthless, a whole lot of other similar assets were on the verge of becoming worthless or at least worth less. The Dubai situation may be similar. Market behavior has been similar thus far. After the overnight fall during Thanksgiving, the market recovered to one more new high, but has been unable to progress any further, despite "good news" on employment, retail sales and consumer sentiment that, before this week, would have resulted in further stock market gains.

2. The Dollar. The dollar rallied about 2% this week. As mentioned by others here, an appreciating dollar will result in the unravelling of the carry trade at some point, particularly if the assets being purchased with borrowed dollars are no longer appreciating, as has been the case recently. Gold would be an example of a speculative asset that fell substantially this week. Also, I can imagine ways that an appreciating dollar could wreak additional havoc with sovereign wealth funds (as in Dubai) or any entity that is up to their neck in dollar based leverage.

3. The Declining Trade Deficit. This may seem like good news, but the trade deficit is what has been financing our bond market. If the differential is instead being used by US consumers to pay down debt instead of saving it and buying US government debt, then Uncle Sam may need to cry uncle (see next point).

4. This Week's 30 Year Bond Auction. The bonds fetched 4.52%, about 0.08% higher than anticipated, if I recall correctly, due to slack demand. Seeing that there is a lot of future US government debt to finance and slackening demand, Uncle Sam may be forced to think about whether it might be wise to call a halt to the stock market speculation as an incentive to divert more savings/money into government bonds instead of stocks. Increasing 30 year bond yields will result in problems for the economy since borrowing rates are tied to the 30 year bond rate.

5. The Bernanke "Hold" and Obama's Poll Numbers. A number of Senators (4 or 5) have announced that they will seek a hold on Ben Bernanke's nomination for a second term beginnning in 2010. I'm not really sure how significant this is short term. It's sort of an indicator to me that there has been a fairly rapid change in general sentiment towards the monetary recklessness that Bernanke represents. Same with the recent drop in Obama's poll numbers. The natives seem to be getting restless.

Anything else???
Last edited by Higgenbotham on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
John
Posts: 11501
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

How about this:
> Cash-strapped US consumers to pare holiday spending

> WASHINGTON — Cash-strapped US consumers plan to spend about 15
> percent less on Christmas gifts in 2009 than they did last year, a
> credit industry research group reported Wednesday.

> On average, shoppers are expected to spend 723 dollars on holiday
> presents this year, compared to 831 dollars in 2008 and 896
> dollars in 2007, Discover Financial Services said.

> Women will outspend men slightly, dishing out an average of 742
> dollars compared to 702 dollars, according to a survey by the
> credit group.
> http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNew ... 64587.html
John
Higgenbotham
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

John wrote:How about this:

John
One of the "good news" items this morning was a government report showing that November retail spending was up much more than expected. However, there appear to be a number of problems with that government report (apparently there were some changes to the methods used to compile the data this month) and it conflicts with data such as the consumer survey you posted above and a daily spending survey I read about this week that showed spending dropped substantially across all income levels and age groups last month, as well as actual Black Friday sales data taken from retailer's terminals (you'd have to check me on that one, but basically every non government data point is saying that consumer spending is falling a lot).
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
gerald
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by gerald »

xakzen wrote:
gerald wrote: ...
The problem is we do not understand, or even know, all of the forces of nature.
And the "free energy device' may work do to a misunderstand of some area of physics.
...
This is a rather extraordinary claim not present in the advertisement. By investors I presume you mean the suckers who purchase this kit.
An example of this lack of understanding relates to gravity, there is evidence/questions regarding the uniformity of Earth's gravity over time."The Dinosaurs and the Gravity Problem" http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1913389/posts
I am always perplex when I see outwardly fervent people stooping to strained scientific arguments to substantiate their statements of faith. God created all the universe and everything in it I have no doubt. But the Bible states over and again that one can only come to the Father through faith alone. He has removed all His fingerprints from His creation save what is writ on the hearts of His chosen people. In my view one can only find doubt in such endeavors; for if you cannot prove God in science surely there are those who can disprove Him by inductive reasoning. Faith found through such proofs is doomed when new evidence arrives. That's why there are no serious Deists today. Quantum Mechanics doomed their Newtonian clockwork universe.
Interesting,

I thought I made it clear, regarding the "perpetual motion device" for creating electricity, if people want to be fools, so be it, let the market decide , it will work or it will not. investors lose money all the time for more sane reasons.

About 40 years ago I invested in a crazy company, the demand was so huge by the stupid unsophisticated investors that shares had to be rationed, I could only get 20 shares. The smart investors , the big boys, thought who in their right mind would invest in a company where the physical assets could not be seen and you could not go and touch them? After it proved profitable, the big boys figured out a way to force the little people to sell to them. The company ---Communications Satellite Corporation -- Comsat.

Regarding the other comments, I try to take a detached approached to things.
In my readings and experience (some of which may be classified as spiritual), it appears that everything in all of creation is interconnected,
"good" and "evil" are like, "positive" and "negative", "male" and "female," they exist to provide tension
and to relieve the boredom of existence.

you may want to read ---
the 13 tablets of Enki, ancient Sumerian
the Earth Cronicals by Zachri Sitchen, based on ancient writings the world over
the human genetic work of Lolyd Pye
the work of Immanuel Velikovsky, Worlds in Collision
Up dated in part by the "Thunderbolts Site" -- "the electric universe" including some analysis of ancient myths
the ##### Interview by, Lawerence Spencer , Available Amazon books

Warning, the above, may not be comforting.

Sorry, if some of these comments should not be on the "financial topics" site.
Higgenbotham
Posts: 7990
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

http://www.zawya.com/Story.cfm/sidZW20091209000161
Nakheel, part of Dubai World, has a $3.52 billion Islamic bond due Dec. 14 that could default triggering a damaging grab by creditors of its parent's assets. Dubai World shocked international investors on Nov. 25 when it asked for a debt standstill for at least six months as it restructures $26 billion of debt...

The underlying assets for Nakheel 's bond are parts of the undeveloped Waterfront project. Analysts say the land, valued at 15.5 billion U.A.E. dirhams ($4.2 billion) in the bond's 2006 prospectus, could have fallen by 50%. The majority of Nakheel 's assets are plots of land in Dubai, which has seen property prices hammered this year.
The bond is secured by more than just the waterfront property; it is also secured by the assets of Dubai World. The bond has a number of shareholders and some of them are hedge funds who intend to grab the assets of Dubai World. As I understand it, there is a 14 day grace period beyond the December 14 due date. Also, there will be a meeting with Dubai World's creditors on December 21 to discuss the restructuring of $26 billion in debt.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
wvbill
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:46 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by wvbill »

Bill Moyers tonight on PBS:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/12112 ... file2.html

Indicates growing unrest against the banks and an interview with Howard Zinn...

The activism is not yet violent, but clearly increasing... It is going to get interesting...

Bill

P.S. John and Higgie. I very much appreciate your comments. I am not expert in these areas, but operate more on intuition, which mostly means deciding who to listen to. I always listen to your comments. Thanks.
Higgenbotham
Posts: 7990
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

wvbill wrote:P.S. John and Higgie. I very much appreciate your comments. I am not expert in these areas, but operate more on intuition, which mostly means deciding who to listen to. I always listen to your comments. Thanks.
I've been checking the validity of the points I outlined earlier.

1. Dubai. Seems valid. I don't see how it's a lot different than the Ohio Life announcement August 24, 1857 that they would be suspending payments, which precipitated the Panic of 1857. It seems pretty clear to me that Dubai has announced intentions to default and that is what they are going to do. I'll keep looking into this. One difference may be that the recipients of the Ohio Life payments had no collateral to seize. On the other hand, it seems clear that Dubai does not have adequate collateral to cover the loans or they would not be defaulting. One common sense point would be that if this was not a problem, there would not be 100 bankers scheduled to meet in Dubai on December 21, 4 days before Christmas. It's a big problem.

2. The Dollar. Somewhat valid. A better correlation to short term stock market activity seems to be this: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EURJPY= ... z=m&q=b&c=
Notice how it tracked stock market movements this week.

3. The Declining Trade Deficit. Not valid. I had assumed imports had declined which was not true. Imports were up 0.4% and exports were up 2.5%. This is indeed very good news and positive for the stock market. However, WAS may be the operative word instead of IS. Most analysts are saying the increase in exports was due to the low dollar. Well, as of this week, the dollar is a lot higher than it was when all this good news was taking place.

4. This Week's 30 Year Bond Auction. Valid.

5. The Bernanke "Hold" and Obama's Poll Numbers. Not an immediate problem. The Bernanke "hold" is a low probability wild card. Orders of magnitude more likely in my opinion is that a crash occurs first, then Bernanke gets forced out, rather than the other way around.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Higgenbotham
Posts: 7990
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

The Gallup daily spending patterns for November show reversion back to the lower levels earlier this year among high income earners. Lots of interesting graphs.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124634/Upper ... ormal.aspx
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
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