Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

In all honesty, all the hate filled replies that were posted, most of them saying how worthless Boomers were, did more to convince me than just your claim. I guess they don't realize that they're just providing more evidence for it. It shows how much hatred can blind you to the truth.

Another question I have about Generational Dynamics: to me, the Eastern Front in WWII sounds either like a first turning reset or the end of an exceptionally long crisis period. The soldiers were told: "Do not count days. Do not count miles... count bodies. Count only the number of Germans you have killed." This doesn't sound like the attitude of a mid-cycle clash in the same fashion as the Napoleonic Wars, particularly what they did to the civilian population when they marched into Germany.

Your excellent article of "The Legacy of World War I and the Holocaust" reminded me of some questions about where exactly we are on the Generational timeline. Are we still in the 3rd Turning or have we made it to the Crisis 4th Turning. According to S&H the generations should line up thus in the 4th Turning:

Child: New Lost (Artist)
Young: Millennium (Hero)
Middle-aged: Gen-X (Nomad)
Elder: Boomer (Prophet)

In S&H's The Fourth Turning (1997) they predict the turning around 2005 starting with a catalyst event followed by a regeneracy event that unifies the nation and finally a climax to end the crisis. Of course the dates are just approximate, but you seem to be inferring that the NASDAQ crash was this catalyst. I originally suspected that it was the 9/11 attack since for myself and many of my friends & family, I heard many of the types of genocidal rants & feels associated with this event & my generation. I vividly remember my own anger subsiding when I heard a person on the radio yelling how we should "Nuke Mecca". I can remember the initial reaction to Bush's successful attempts to calm the situation being very negative. People wanted the revenge you talk about but toward an external threat. In fact many at the time made the comparison to Pearl Harbor. Later when I read the 4th Turning, I suspected that I was wrong about the crisis because although Bush 43 is a Boomer, many of his advisers were still Silent compromisers like Donald Rumsfeld(1932), Dick Cheney(1941), & Colin Powell(1937). Thus the generation constellation was not right for the turning and the crisis was averted for the time being.

As far as your own theories I guess I miss understood (and probaly continue to not understand) your prediction of a market collapse as being the beginning of the crisis (the catalyst), but maybe you're really talking about it as the regeneracy event? Clearly given the current political climate we have not had that regeneracy event. Still I am confused because even though we have a Gen-Xer in the White House (Obama), the leadership in the Congress are mostly Silents (Nancy Pelosi [1941], Harry Reid [1939] & Mitch McConnel [1942]) and one Boomer (John Boehner [1949]). Also in the administration Hillary Clinton (1947),Tim Geithner (1961), Leon Panetta (1938). It should be that the Silents still have influence in government, but many of these people don't act like Artists. Many act much more like Prophets are suppose to act as elders being uncompromising rather than compromising. In the crisis the Prophets are suppose to be leading with the Nomads managing, the Heroes doing & following and the Artists helping and being protected.

So where are we in the cycle or has the cycle been broken (I know you don't believe that)?

Also I'm not sure I agree with your comparison of toxic assets to concentration camps. Although I agree that no one is been held responsible for the economic devastation, this appears to me to be corruption at all levels from Paulson (1946), Benanke (1953), Summers (1954) and Geithner(1961) though to the Gen-Xer middle managers. It was the Silents & Heroes who prosecuted the S&L crisis through the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC) in the 80s. Relatively few Gen-Xers and Boomers have benefited from the crisis and most have suffered much the same financial fate. But in retrospect no one is going to extermination camps! If fact the perpetrators of these corruptions refuse to even acknowledge the destruction they have rot. Quite the opposite, most continue to claim they save the world as when Lloyd Blankfein(1954) said they were "Doing God's work". And of course the Pollyannish Press who would make Pravada blush with their ridiculous pronouncements of endless recovery just around the corner or worst that we are in a recovery. S&H talk about the generational constellation being such that the interaction of the archetypes produces the Turning, but you seem to lay most of the blame at the foot of the Nomad generation with only stupid complacency on the part of the Boomers. I understand that it only takes a relatively few "rotten apples" to spoil the well, but don't they cross generational lines? Or does the hatred that Gen-Xers have for Boomers also go the other way as so many articles written by Boomers in the 80's talked about how stupid the Gen-Xers were. Being a Gen-Xer I can't argue too much against that since I am continually astonished at the stupidity, but I hear just as stupid pronouncements from people of every age.

I also found John's Holocaust-causation thesis most interesting, and think he's onto something here. However, as one who is also a Generation-X'er, I'm respectfully wondering how much the creation of tens of trillions of dollars of toxic derivatives/assets was caused by Gen-X'ers "just naturally doing their thing once they had the opportunity" as opposed to a willful effort to screw over the Boomer/Prophet cohort. It kind of seemed to me that many of those X'er "quants" were willing to create their concoctions without regard to who got hurt. But, maybe others have a story to add here in regards to evidence that X'ers were out to "get" Boomers after the Nasdaq crash in 2000. Thanks, all, for sharing. —Best regards, Marc

Dear Trevor,

Trevor wrote: > Another question I have about Generational Dynamics: to me, the
> Eastern Front in WWII sounds either like a first turning reset or
> the end of an exceptionally long crisis period. The soldiers were
> told: "Do not count days. Do not count miles... count
> bodies. Count only the number of Germans you have killed." This
> doesn't sound like the attitude of a mid-cycle clash in the same
> fashion as the Napoleonic Wars, particularly what they did to the
> civilian population when they marched into Germany.

This is a question that has been heavily debated. My own view is that
there certainly was a first turning reset among part of the eastern
front -- certainly among the Tatars and Chechens, for example. On the
other hand, Russia didn't have a first turning reset, but may have had
some kind of partial first turning reset, based on the huge numbers of
people that were killed. This is something that requires a lot more
research from someone who's an expert on eastern Europe and Russia.

John

xakzen wrote: > As far as your own theories I guess I miss understood (and probaly
> continue to not understand) your prediction of a market collapse
> as being the beginning of the crisis (the catalyst), but maybe
> you're really talking about it as the regeneracy event?

When I write these articles, it's hard to know how far into the weeds
I can get in each article. From the point of view of theory, the
crisis ERA began in 2000, though the actual crisis (war crisis,
financial crisis) begins with the regeneracy event, as you say.

xakzen wrote: > Also I'm not sure I agree with your comparison of toxic assets to
> concentration camps. Although I agree that no one is been held
> responsible for the economic devastation, this appears to me to be
> corruption at all levels from Paulson (1946), Benanke (1953),
> Summers (1954) and Geithner(1961) though to the Gen-Xer middle
> managers. It was the Silents & Heroes who prosecuted the S&L
> crisis through the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC) in the
> 80s. Relatively few Gen-Xers and Boomers have benefited from the
> crisis and most have suffered much the same financial fate. But in
> retrospect no one is going to extermination camps!

I've discussed this at very great length in the book draft that
I've written, and if you have half an hour or so, you may wish
to read it.

http://generationaldynamics.com/gx113

I've tried to distinguish between Gen-Xers and the "Gen-X culture."
It's quite possible that are as many (or as few) crooks in
Generation-X as in other generations, but that isn't what's creating
the Gen-X culture.

What's creating the Gen-X culture is the almost universal attitude
of Gen-Xers not to blame other Gen-Xers for committing crimes. I've
had several bizarre conversations with Gen-Xers on this subject, and
talking to them gives me the feeling that they're in the twilight
zone.

In particular, the Obama Justice Department absolutely refuses to
investigate and prosecute the crimes that were committed by the
banksters. This would involve subpoenaing memos, e-mail messages,
phone logs, financial records, and so forth, to determine the
culpability of the various banksters.

Not only to Gen-Xers absolutely refused to investigate and prosecute
other Gen-Xers for obvious crimes, but they even support and applaud
such crimes. For example, I've written about Gen-X New York Insurance
Superintendent Eric Dinallo who, instead of investigating and
prosecuting banksters who committed fraud, actually encouraged the
banksters to continue committing fraud, which is why fraud is
continuing to this day.

So even if there are only a few Gen-Xers who are committing crimes,
those few can still do an unlimited amount of damage, since they're
never investigated and prosecuted even for the most obvious crimes.

That's exactly what happened in the Holocaust. People Germany's Lost
Generation squealed with glee at Kristallnacht, and then later said,
"Well, we didn't know what was going on," or "Well, we were just doing
what our bosses told us to do."

These are exactly the same sleazy excuses that Gen-X criminals
use to excuse their activities in the financial crisis.

But since the Obama Justice Department steadfastly refuses to
investigate and prosecute their Gen-X pals, nothing will change.

John

Dear Marc,

Marc wrote: > I also found John's Holocaust-causation thesis most interesting,
> and think he's onto something here. However, as one who is also a
> Generation-X'er, I'm respectfully wondering how much the creation
> of tens of trillions of dollars of toxic derivatives/assets was
> caused by Gen-X'ers "just naturally doing their thing once they
> had the opportunity" as opposed to a willful effort to screw over
> the Boomer/Prophet cohort. It kind of seemed to me that many of
> those X'er "quants" were willing to create their concoctions
> without regard to who got hurt. But, maybe others have a story to
> add here in regards to evidence that X'ers were out to "get"
> Boomers after the Nasdaq crash in 2000. Thanks, all, for
> sharing. —Best regards, Marc

There is absolutely no doubt, based on circumstantial evidence, that
these toxic securities were created with the intention of defrauding
people.

I discussed this at length in my book.

Furthermore, William K. Black, whom I quote, says that there's
no doubt that they were created with the intention to defraud.

The reason that you can even say that they were "just naturally doing
their thing" is because the Obama Justice Department absolutely
refuses to investigate and prosecute their Gen-X bankster pals.

Come to think of it, I would have to agree that they were "just
naturally doing their thing," since their "thing" was fraud
and extortion.

John

Hi, John,

Thanks for the cogent reply. Just to kindly clarify, I do agree that many Generation-X'ers who were involved in creating all that financial wizardry in the past decade were certainly willfully creating fraudulent instruments, with plenty of evidence to prove this. What I was respectfully wondering is just how much of this financial engineering was actually motivated by a Gen-X desire to get revenge on Boomers as opposed to just an opportunistic chance for Gen-X quants and functionaries to screw whomever they pleased (regardless of the generation of potential victims). Again, as a Gen-X'er myself, I haven't come across any Gen-X'er that I personally know of yet who seemed to have a pathological desire to "screw Boomers," but maybe I'm missing something from my neck of the woods Thanks again for the follow-up. —Best regards, Marc

Dear Marc,

Marc wrote: > Thanks for the cogent reply. Just to kindly clarify, I do agree
> that many Generation-X'ers who were involved in creating all that
> financial wizardry in the past decade were certainly willfully
> creating fraudulent instruments, with plenty of evidence to prove
> this. What I was respectfully wondering is just how much of this
> financial engineering was actually motivated by a Gen-X desire to
> get revenge on Boomers as opposed to just an opportunistic chance
> for Gen-X quants and functionaries to screw whomever they pleased
> (regardless of the generation of potential victims). Again, as a
> Gen-X'er myself, I haven't come across any Gen-X'er that I
> personally know of yet who seemed to have a pathological desire to
> "screw Boomers," but maybe I'm missing something from my neck of
> the woods Thanks again for the follow-up.

OK, fair enough. The Gen-X banksters want to defraud everyone,
not just Boomers.

This also parallels the situation with feminism, as I discussed in my
book. Feminists blame men for everything, and claim they're just
screwing men, but in fact they're screwing everyone, destroying as
many families and encouraging as much abuse of children as possible,
so that feminist organizations will make more money.

But I think that's a secondary effect. Everything I've seen from
Gen-Xers is that they blame Boomers for everything. But once the
Gen-X banksters start defrauding Boomers, they realize that they can
do anything they want, and no one can stop them, since no one is
willing to investigate and prosecute even the most obvious crimes. So
if you're a criminal, you might as well draw blood from anyone you
can, without restricting yourself to just one generation.

John

Thanks for the insightful follow-up — those perpetrators you describe sound like some of the fellow X'ers I've come across And, as you would likely agree, once a few bold cats do this sort of stuff, others get "inspired by it" (especially if their managers don't mind all the money they're making), and it permeates the whole organizational culture of where they work (and eventually permeates entire "industry cultures" and "government cultures" as well). Thanks again, John, for sharing. —Best regards, Marc