Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

John,

There's direct evidence that the market is rejecting the US dollar.

Normal market relationships that have always held are not holding. This interesting article quotes Sam Zell and it's obvious he is seeing what I am seeing. It's interesting that Zell mentions the bond market, which in my view has been the one area that is still not showing signs of dollar rejection.

I may have theories and ideas about what I think will happen in the future, but the facts on the ground are that the market is rejecting the US dollar in a very big way. I see now it's becoming mainstream news that there are 13 states getting ready to implement alternative currencies. I've written about that a few times as something that could happen down the road, but it's already happening.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03 ... lver_Coins

All that needs to happen for the dollar to fall 10, 20 or even 30 percent overnight is for the world to realize that the dollar is being rejected as the world reserve currency. Once that tipping point is reached, panic will take place on the world's currency exchanges. If it does, my prediction is that it will happen overnight in Asia. Since the dollar is priced as a basket of currencies, it will fall against that basket simply because it will no longer be necessary to use the dollar as a means of payment.

I think Zells' estimate of a 25% reduction in living standards is accurate, which would probably result in an immediate loss in the value of the dollar of about half of that should a panic occur.

I would guess there may be a few months for Obama to remove Bernanke and rectify the situation but there's not a lot of time. The other option would be to go ahead and pull the plug on the stock market.

http://www.moneynews.com/Headline/Sam-Z ... ode=BCB2-1
Billionaire real-estate magnate Sam Zell warns that Americans should brace for a "disastrous" 25 percent decline in the standard of living if the U.S. dollar’s reign as the global reserve currency ever ends.

He says that there are signs in the market that it could eventually happen. As it is now, a Korean manufacturer who wants to sell to Brazil must first buy dollars to complete the deal. If countries decide to bypass the dollar, the effect would be a disaster, Zell says.

"Frankly, I think we’re at a tipping point. What’s my biggest single financial concern is the loss of the dollar as the reserve currency,” he told CNBC in an interview. “I can’t imagine anything being more disastrous to our country than if the dollar lost its reserve-currency status.”

Although he is “hoping against hope” the dollar remains the standard for international exchange, he warns that “you’re already seeing things in the markets that are suggesting that confidence in the dollar is waning.”

If that happens, the impact on the United States would be deep. “I think you could see a 25 percent reduction in the standard of living in this country if the U.S. dollar was no longer the world’s reserve currency,” Zell said “That’s how valuable it is.”

Zell says that the bond market seems remarkably complacent about the risk. But that could turn on a dime, he warns.

“The worry in the bond market is never there until it’s there. The dollar has gone down 20 percent in the last three or four years,” Zell says. “I don’t know who is buying 30-year fixed-rate debt. I don’t understand TIPs (Treasury inflation-protected bonds) that are projecting 30 years of benign inflation.”

Benchmark 10-year Treasury note yields are around 3.48 percent. TIPs maturing in 2041 have a yield of 1.96 percent.

Once the world turns on the U.S. dollar, if it does, things will change fast, Zell warns. “How could interest rates not go up? Either they go up or the dollar goes down, one or the other,” Zell says.

As for inflation, he estimates that actual inflation is between 5 percent and 7 percent right now, despite government figures showing the CPI flirting with low single digits. Fear of deflation — prices falling out of control — has been the primary motivator at the Federal Reserve to pump up money supply by more than $2 trillion in recent months.

Nevertheless, oil is rising fast and food riots are breaking out in developing countries. The United States has been less affected until recently. Zell points out that our Consumer Price Index tends to hide inflation by counting depressed home prices at 42 percent of the index.

“If you adjusted the CPI to reality you’re probably looking at 5, 6, 7 percent inflation today,” Zell says.

“The reality out there is the costs are going up. The fact that we’ve been massive beneficiaries of Chinese mercantilist policies that have allowed us to buy goods at much less than their fair value. That has hurt us on the manufacturing side, but it has been a subsidy to America. That subsidy is coming to an end.”

Others agree with Zell that the dollar’s world dominance will soon fade.

Ray Dalio, founder & CIO of Bridgewater Associates, told CNBC that it is “inevitable that the dollar's role as the world's currency will diminish from the dominant world currency to one of a few.”

"It will fade probably fairly quickly so the United States which accounts for almost two-thirds of the reserves will probably go down to 50 percent of the world's reserves and it will have an effect on lending," he added.

Meanwhile, Bill Gross, found of bond giant Pimco, recently told investors that the Fed’s heavy thumb on the scales on behalf of low interests was perhaps necessary given the magnitude of the crisis. The second round of easing known as “QE2,” perhaps, also had a role to play.

However, as the deadline for the second round to end looms — it is set to expire in June — there are serious questions about whether a smooth transition to private demand for U.S. debt will appear, Gross said.
Last edited by Higgenbotham on Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Higgie - Fall 20-40% against what currency? ALL Asian currencies? Just one?

And what currency is going to replace the dollar as reserve currency? The yuan?

Is that what you believe?

John
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

John wrote:Higgie - Fall 20-40% against what currency? ALL Asian currencies? Just one?

And what currency is going to replace the dollar as reserve currency? The yuan?

Is that what you believe?

John
I'm talking about the Dollar Index, which is the standard by which the dollar is valued. It is comprised of the exchange traded currencies: the Euro, Yen, Canadian Dollar, Aussie Dollar, British Pound, Swiss Franc and probably a couple others I forgot.

Well, what I believe is that from the evidence I have been seeing, the market has been showing signs of rejecting the dollar for about the past 2 weeks and it's getting worse. When I say that, I'm not talking about anecdotal stuff like the Norwegians sold their US Treasuries a few years ago. I mean that the normal market relationships are not holding. When normal relationships don't hold in huge markets, then something is wrong. I called a friend of mine the other day and said let me see if I have something straight. I said after the stock market sells off a couple percent, the dollar will usually be up the same day but if it's not it will ALWAYS be up the next day, do I have that right? He said right. And I said have you noticed that's not happening too? He said yes, I've noticed it too. Another thing is when you see the stock market selling off, it is not normal for silver to be rising 3% per day. It's not normal for silver to be rising at all in such a situation. It's not normal for silver to be rising faster than gold in such a situation. These are just things you automatically know from watching markets. Come to think of it, the first odd thing I noticed was in early February when the S&P 500 climbed over 1310. That was odd for a few reasons and the analyst I quoted confirmed what I had been thinking using his methods. The S&P 500 remains over 1310. It tried to get under it again today and couldn't.

I don't think anything will replace it; there will just be complete chaos like I said before. Then over a few decades, a computerized system accommodating all the various currencies will be implemented. But it's becoming clear that the world will no longer likely tolerate what is happening to the dollar. And that's a good thing.

So either Obama will need to remove Bernanke and restore confidence (it may be too late to do that) or a really huge crash will need to take place to wipe out the excess dollars or we descend into monetary chaos. Or I suppose some combination is possible. I don't know what will happen.
Last edited by Higgenbotham on Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

vincecate wrote:
Higgenbotham wrote:Since there's no large safe haven sink, there can't be a predictable money flow until one is established.
Commodities, gold, and silver are looking rather large and safe. I think they will look more and more so. Nothing so safe as cases of tuna. Or you can go to beprepared.com and click on "year supply and combos". SLV up 3.82% today. Bonds down and dollar also, multiply those together for total loss.

This experiment has been done many times before. Things are unfolding the way they should when the central bank is printing money really fast. Commodities, gold and silver are good. Eventually interest rates go up and bonds, stocks, real estate are bad.

I think this is predictable.
Silver is a small market. In order to accommodate the money flow, silver would need to rise to several hundred dollars per ounce or maybe even more. Believe me, if that were to happen, things will get extremely chaotic. People will be hunting down the old copper pennies and using them as exchange and all kinds of weird stuff.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Higgenbotham wrote: Silver is a small market. In order to accommodate the money flow, silver would need to rise to several hundred dollars per ounce or maybe even more. Believe me, if that were to happen, things will get extremely chaotic. People will be hunting down the old copper pennies and using them as exchange and all kinds of weird stuff.
Through most of history silver, not gold, was the main money and I think it will be again. Yes, silver could get to hundreds of dollars per ounce. Things will be chaotic. Yes, copper pennies could be used. Yes, weird stuff coming.

But governments can't borrow 40% of every dollar they spend and make trillions of new dollars without, eventually, bad things happening to their currency. Japan seems to be about the only case to go more than a few years with such high borrowing. Japanese were big savers and giving all their savings to the government for no interest, so the government could do this an unusually long time. When they did quantitative easing they unwound it, which there is no real chance of the Fed doing. Japan had their currency go up by a factor of 4 relative to the dollar which made low interest rates ok. Japan is not the typical case and people should not ignore all the other cases and think the US is like Japan. It is not.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Higgenbotham wrote: So either Obama will need to remove Bernanke and restore confidence (it may be too late to do that) or a really huge crash will need to take place to wipe out the excess dollars or we descend into monetary chaos. Or I suppose some combination is possible. I don't know what will happen.
Note that with 5% inflation per month (80% per year) the value of a 10 or 30 year 5% bond is basically zero. So if we get 5% per month the value of long term bonds goes to basically zero. This does wipe out lots of dollars.

But much of the debt is now in terms 1 year or less (near half I think). So plenty of bonds coming due to make monetary chaos as these get paid off with newly created money.

Getting rid of Bernanke is not enough. The deficit would need to be tamed, otherwise they need the Fed to print to cover the deficit. But I think there is no chance of taming the budget in time. If the tea party talk had been able to result in $500 billion cuts, or if there was a real chance they did not raise the debt ceiling, it might have been possible. But I think it is just too far gone at this point.

The best case I can imagine is they raise the debt ceiling $2 trillion and then get hyperinflation till they bump against that. At that point there is a chance they decide to not raise the ceiling and default. But only a very small chance. Once they did this they would have to cut 40% of the budget, which is just not realistic as long as they think they can print money. Only after the currency is worthless will the government really get such huge cuts.
OLD1953
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Re: Financial topics

Post by OLD1953 »

The editorials today were exceptionally oriented towards generational differences and crashes. Most interesting.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/four-t ... 2011-03-01
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vivian-di ... 29524.html
http://www.publicradio.org/columns/mark ... t_the.html

There were others, things about generational differences in using Facebook, investing trends, etc. Either John is having an effect, or people are simply starting to notice.
burt
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Re: Financial topics

Post by burt »

Higgenbotham wrote: China has just announced this week that all cross border transactions (goods moving in and out of China) will no longer be priced in dollars starting sometime this year.
Bluff or Reality? most derivatives markets are in dollars, and, on my knowledge, 80% of the world money is used for derivatives, NOT for real stuffs.

Higgenbotham where did you get this information, I didn't noticed it, thanks

Regards
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Higgenbotham wrote:When normal relationships don't hold in huge markets, then something is wrong. I called a friend of mine the other day and said let me see if I have something straight. I said after the stock market sells off a couple percent, the dollar will usually be up the same day but if it's not it will ALWAYS be up the next day, do I have that right? He said right. And I said have you noticed that's not happening too? He said yes, I've noticed it too. Another thing is when you see the stock market selling off, it is not normal for silver to be rising 3% per day.
I think it makes sense. Think of it as 4 different currencies called, "dollar", "S&P", "oil", and "silver" but with the added twist that 3 of these are usually reported in terms of "dollar". Think that the real value of "oil" and "silver" don't change much on a day to day basis, at least the real value does not change as easily as the real value of "dollar". If "dollar" goes down but the real value of "S&P" is unchanged then in "dollar" units it will go up. But "oil" going up in "dollars" hurts both "S&P" (reflecting higher cost) and "dollar", then both of those can go down at the same time. If "oil" is up 2 or 3% in "dollars" then it is reasonable for "silver" to be up 2 or 3% also since really "oil" and "silver" are not changing and the real value of "dollar" is changing.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

John wrote:And what currency is going to replace the dollar as reserve currency?
There are really two related things.
1) What assets do central banks use to support the value of their currencies?
2) What units are international trade denominated in?

It simplifies life and reduces some kinds of uncertainty if these can be the basically the same, like "dollar bonds" and "dollars". But they might not be the same. Maybe central banks will use shares in public companies, or real estate, or gold, or silver, or just the taxing power of the country, to support their currency. And trade could be done in many different currencies at whatever the current exchange rates are that day. China can well say that all contracts for trade with China have to be in terms of Yuan and life can go on. So things could really work even without any "replacement for the dollar as reserve currency". Though clearly there can be plenty of chaos in the transition to a new international financial structure.
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