Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

at99sy wrote:What is preventing the SEC and the government at large from banning the speculative trading in oil?
List of reasons:

The SEC is controlled by big finance.

The SEC wants to appear more "customer friendly" to those they regulate (true in all government agencies nowadays and it also allows for the employees to get more time in watching porn so it's a win win for everyone except the taxpayer).

The government is trying to bail out insolvent banks by giving them money to speculate with in hopes they can turn a profit and clean up their balance sheets.

The government doesn't want to give the apearance that they are "impeding free markets" and the opportunity that exists in America for people to do as they wish with their capital.

The exchanges and finance companies make a lot of money from trading related fees and commissions.

When the specs run the price of oil up, that creates the inflation that Bernanke wants.

Higher oil prices (to a point) mean that economic activity and corporate profits are higher overall.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Lily wrote:Vince - you've convinced me about hyperinflation, but I'm not so sure about your security preparations.
I am far more convinced about hyperinflation than any of the details of how it will impact my island or that my own security preparations are enough. :-)

First note that many places had hyperinflation without resulting in anarchy. In fact crime levels usually just go up slightly. Now we have never had hyperinflation in a world reserve currency (or maybe ex-world reserve currency by the time hyperinflation is really going). So things are going to be worse. But it is really hard to have any confidence about how exactly things will be.

I have a Visa from Etrade that I can use to buy things or get cash from an ATM. I can have GLD or SLV in my account if I want. So I can sort of have money in gold and still use a credit card. So even 5% inflation per month probably would not bother me all that much. I can almost imagine lots of the dollar world moving to gold and silver using things like this.

Anyway, as long as people are free to adapt they tend to find ways. Instead of saving dollars people can buy cans of tuna. The problem is if the governments try to do price controls or combat "hoarding". Then the economy can really be destroyed.

I am really not sure how well my island will cope. But I much rather be here than in a big city where many people live off the government.

Since a large fraction of Americans own guns, I don't really think crime will go up that much. Criminals will be shot. Police are not paid out of the Federal budget, so they are probably still around. So it might not be anarchy. On the other hand, if 16% of the population were to suddenly stop getting their food stamps, there will be problems. So it is really not clear.

I sort of figure the Federal government has to be cut in half or it may just fail altogether. But the states do some of the social programs.
Lily wrote: All of which points to the extreme danger of living on an island without a sustainable food source. Buying food is great, but what happens when your year runs out?
It is not clear how our island economy will fare. We are mostly based on tourism. In crazy hard times this may nearly stop. We don't have people on government support, so unlike America there is not the risk of 16% of the people losing food stamps. If there is dangerous unrest in America and things are fine here we might have all kinds of rich people move here. We are a like a small town with a moat around us. If times get hard we might be very careful about who we let in. We do have huge amounts of ocean with good fishing. The uncertainty about what will happen is huge.
Lily wrote: My forcasts look more like at LEAST 2-4 years of chaos, frighteningly high prices, and violent social disorder. What will you do in the meantime on an infertile chunk of rock in the middle of the ocean? Could you escape the island quickly if needed?
To the extent that free markets are allowed to operate I think things will adapt to a dead dollar very quickly. I have started a business buying and selling gold because I read a book and blog by Ferfal (http://ferfal.blogspot.com/ ) that convinced me that was a good business to be in during hyperinflation.

I do have a 26 foot sailboat and could theoretically escape but it is hard to imagine where I would be better off going. We are part of a community here. Along with Anguilla passports we also have UK passports, so could move to Europe. Switzerland seems nice but I am not getting the 6 of us there on that 26 foot boat.

Most houses in Anguilla are concrete with concrete roofs. Hurricanes have sometimes broken windows but houses are not really hurt much here.

If you have resources you can hire people to help with security. I think we have extra food to where we could pay someone a #10 can of food to act as a guard for the day.
Lily wrote:
Perhaps it would be more advisable to be further away from populated areas.
I would love to have a floating house and have actually spent a bunch of time thinking of designs and testing out models in the ocean to see how they work. I was planning this for years from now but sometimes wonder about trying to do it sooner.
http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/User:Vincecate
http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/Seastead
http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/U ... ate/Models
http://floatingislands.com/

Piracy seems to only really be a problem because most ships are not allowed to carry even one gun. I believe in every case that even one gun was fired toward Somali pirates the pirates broke off the attack. Think about it, a guy shooting from a big stable ship with 1/2 inch steel rail firing down on some guys in a rubber boat bouncing around on the waves with a gas tank next to them. Even one rifle on the ship and the odds favor the ship.
Lily
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Lily »

I am far more convinced about hyperinflation than any of the details of how it will impact my island or that my own security preparations are enough.
Are you not concerned that this may be shortsighted? The collapse we are heading into is really, really big. It's epochal, social, and environmental, not just financial. Even according to a purely rational extrapolation from your own financial predictions, shit is really going to hit the fan in an extremely unprecedented way.
First note that many places had hyperinflation without resulting in anarchy. In fact crime levels usually just go up slightly. Now we have never had hyperinflation in a world reserve currency (or maybe ex-world reserve currency by the time hyperinflation is really going). So things are going to be worse. But it is really hard to have any confidence about how exactly things will be.
The US won't have hyperinflation without anarchy, I'd be willing to wager.

Mexico is already in a state of essentially full-blown anarchy, and the condition will tend to spread as the impoverishment of local governments and commercial growth coalitions creates a power vacuum.

Something like 80% of the cost of food in America and most of the first world is the cost of oil, since we mostly eat extremely processed food. That means that when the dollar loses its position as the world reserve currency and oil prices go mad, food prices will immediately go mad, too. City and State governments won't be able to do anything because they're bankrupt and selling off infrastructure to pay bills. Federal governments will likely intervene to attempt to avert a food crisis, but if all they have to pay for food is debauched dollars, they won't be able to do much good. Keep in mind that at the same time, climate change and soil degradation caused by industrial monocultural agriculture is causing a crash in food production all over the world.

(http://www.larouchepac.com/node/15393
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... -the-world
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7289194.stm
http://www.agrimoney.com/news/australia ... -1376.html
http://www.thetotalcollapse.com/crop-wa ... at-region/
http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2011/02 ... -save.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/028495_agric ... otash.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... s-collapse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder
http://seekingalpha.com/article/247155- ... y-concerns
http://www.wheat.commoditynewszone.net/ ... in-us.html
(information about the oncoming collapse of US agriculture is harder to find than China and Russia because they are hiding it, but we didn't know about it for those countries until it happened, either.)

Russian and Australian agriculture collapsed last year, China's is collapsing this year, and ours is in critical condition and will likely collapse next year. This is happening now.

There will also be devastating water shortages.

http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/ar ... t-of-water
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/ ... WY20090311
http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/watersustainability/ (the problem is more near-term than this last one suggests!)

If the market goes, so goes the dollar. If the dollar goes, there will be fuel shortages and food and water shortages. If there are food and fuel and water shortages amid a backdrop of serious economic hardship, in one of the most heavily armed societies on earth, there will be anarchy.
Anyway, as long as people are free to adapt they tend to find ways. Instead of saving dollars people can buy cans of tuna. The problem is if the governments try to do price controls or combat "hoarding". Then the economy can really be destroyed.
Markets are not magically perfect, unfortunately. You absolutely can NOT buy cans of tuna if there isn't any to be had because human exploitation has caused a collapse of the entire global tuna population, as is taking place! The same will be true of many, many other goods. You cannot buy food if your society, or its powerful neighbors, has foolishly destroyed the ability of the land to produce sustainance, and you cannot buy water if there is none to be had. Assuming that everything will be fine unless the government mucks it up is far too trusting.
I am really not sure how well my island will cope. But I much rather be here than in a big city where many people live off the government.
If you are right about the coming financial crisis, it seems like it'd be worthwhile to explore the consequences of that on your local level. I mean, like, who physically controls the fresh water sources and distribution infrastructure? How much food is imported, and from where? Under what conditions could those imports be disrupted or siezed? How likely are those import's sources to collapse? How defensible is the island from attack by outside factions? What percentage of the people living on the island would be unable to afford food if prices rise steeply, and what actions will they take? etc etc.

The most likely conclusion to be drawn from this line of questioning is probably that it's safer to live in fertile inland rural areas, away from population concentrations and built-up areas but near sustainable fresh water sources that can be used for sustainable food production. If you can figure out how to get a simple algae bioreactor system running, you could produce your own fuel, too, and live off the grid and away from the chaos, stealthily and securely.
Since a large fraction of Americans own guns, I don't really think crime will go up that much. Criminals will be shot.
I'm sorry, but you have no earthly idea what you are talking about here. I totally support our second ammendment right to own firearms, but anyone who thinks that the easy availabilty of cheap, powerful weapons to a desperate and hungry population will *reduce* violence is completely living in a fantasy world. I was in the dead zone a week after Katrina hit helping with relief efforts, and I have an idea of what really happens when the social fabric collapses. To be sure, criminals will be shot - but they will do a lot of shooting themselves, too. Many societies in the world are both poor and heavily armed - and not one of them is peaceful because of it. Innocents are harmed by this violence much more often than agressors.
Police are not paid out of the Federal budget, so they are probably still around.
Do you think that they will be? Cities and states are going bankrupt already. Their impoverished populations won't be able to pay enough in taxes to support the current level of services + graft, but the political class will cut the services, including the police, before they cut the graft. This is already going on in many cities now, and it will certainly continue after the financial meltdown, especially given that for political reasons many states will probably not adopt a hard currency for some time after the dollar is wiped out.
On the other hand, if 16% of the population were to suddenly stop getting their food stamps, there will be problems.
There will be, but it's not just a 'poor person' problem. It's going to be more than the bottom 16% that will have trouble getting enough food - think more along the lines of the bottom 75% and you will start to get an idea of the size of the problem.
I sort of figure the Federal government has to be cut in half or it may just fail altogether. But the states do some of the social programs.
Given that there's no political will to cut it in half, failure is a reasonable expectation. But given how much the federal givernment is entertwined into a dependant civil society, how could that failure not be disasterous?

States won't have any money for social programs, either. Even if they switch to hard currencies, they will have no specie reserves, no ability to borrow, and minimal tax income. Things are not going to be okay, and there is no one waiting in the wings to avert a humanitarian catastrophe.
If there is dangerous unrest in America and things are fine here we might have all kinds of rich people move here. We are a like a small town with a moat around us. If times get hard we might be very careful about who we let in.
You might have some rich people moving in, but mostly you'll probably have *armed* people moving in to sieze resources. Narco cartels already operate semi-submersibles in Columbia, so island-hopping in the caribean should pose no problem to them. An island full of pleasant well-off people with stores of water, food, fuel, silver, ammo, medicine, kidnap-ees and working ATM cards would definitely present a juicy target for raiders during a crisis, and the existing crisis in Haiti and elsewhere will create a handy pool of desperate young men with no prospects to man the raiding parties. The US regime has already let one caribean island nation disintegrate into nightmarish chaos while hardly lifting a finger to help, and they're going to be stretched thin just staying in power, so don't expect any help from them.

So I'd have to ask just how you plan on being careful who you 'let in'? Do you have the capacity to repel organized armed incursions? Does whatever political structure is in control of whatever tools of violent resistance exist have the coherence and balls to effectively act in an emergency situation, and do the people executing their orders have adequate training for heavy combat in a complex situation? I'm just not seeing any way for the 'escape to an isolated island' strategy to play out effectively in a global collapse scenario.
We do have huge amounts of ocean with good fishing.
Bad news about that. The worldwide fishing yields are currently crashing because of global overexploitation and heavy damaging of oceans.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/end-of-l ... hout-fish/

Besides, even before that, are fish yields high enough to feed everyone on the island if food imports are severely curtailed? And if they are, won't such a rich resource invite agressive neighbors to sieze control over it?
To the extent that free markets are allowed to operate I think things will adapt to a dead dollar very quickly.
Perhaps - but what would things be like after they adapted? The fundamentally weak structure of the economy wouldn't be changed, a huge amount of wealth would have been destroyed, governments and enterprises bankrupted and livlihoods destroyed, agriculture destroyed, citizens disenfranchised and impoverished, transportation almost unaffordable, manufacturing destroyed. The authoritarian regimes all over the world, including the US, will use the chaos to sieze further political control. Chronic low-level warfare will have spread over large swaths of inhabited territory, and numerous major cities will have been partly abandoned.

But the stock market might come back a little and gold will be worth a shitload if you can keep hold of it, so yeah, I guess you could call that 'adaptation'. ;)
If you have resources you can hire people to help with security. I think we have extra food to where we could pay someone a #10 can of food to act as a guard for the day.
That doesn't strike me as a well-thought-out plan. How long will you have extra food without a sustainable local food source? Do you think you collectively have the skills and resources needed to effectively raise, arm, train, regulate, and direct an armed militia? Also, what is stopping the armed militia, if you raised one, from simply appropriating the resources you're using to pay them? Historically this is the common outcome of using mercenaries.
I would love to have a floating house and have actually spent a bunch of time thinking of designs and testing out models in the ocean to see how they work. I was planning this for years from now but sometimes wonder about trying to do it sooner.
A floating house would only work if it somehow had a sustainable onboard food, water, and fuel supply. Otherwise it'd be a death trap.
Piracy seems to only really be a problem because most ships are not allowed to carry even one gun.
Wellll, there are different kinds of piracy. Somali piracy is driven primarily out of desire for cash, so they seize commercial ships that have the ability to pay. They have plenty of potential targets, so they avoid armed ships just like wolves avoid taking healthy prey.

Piracy in the western hemisphere after a hyperinflationary global financial collapse would probably have different, more visceral drivers, like the need to secure food, water, and security for oneself and one's family and kin. Desperate people are far less likely to retreat in the face of opposition, especially if they're armed, organized, prepared for a struggle, and willing to be ruthless. These are problems that are too complex to solve by firing a few warning shots.

So yeah. I don't mean to be a buzzkill or anything, but I'm just saying that if you're right about the impending collapse of the dollar, and I think you are, I can't see any way to avoid going through a very dangerous period of serious social disruption, as John and others have discussed somewhat. A tropical island with low potable water supplies, no arable land, dense population, proximity to potentially agressive neighbors, interruptable communications with sources of vital supplies, and minimal organized capacity for self-defense will necessarily be a vary marginal location for survival purposes. You might want to look at a backup plan. :)
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Lily wrote: Are you not concerned that this may be shortsighted? The collapse we are heading into is really, really big. It's epochal, social, and environmental, not just financial. Even according to a purely rational extrapolation from your own financial predictions, shit is really going to hit the fan in an extremely unprecedented way.
Yes, it will be huge. I think it is very hard to see exactly how huge though.

First we seem to have a fundamentally different view on guns. My view can be summarized and supported by the book "More Guns Less Crime". An example is they took away legal guns in Jamaica in 1974 and the murder rate now is about 10 times higher.

You mention Mexico but it seems that really people can get a 22 and not more. So it is really like they can not have guns, because you are probably better off with a sword than a 22 for home defense.

http://www.davekopel.com/espanol/Mexican-Gun-Laws.htm

Do you know of a not-dirt-poor, non-revolution, country were it is easy for regular law abiding citizens to get real guns (for many years and not just 22) that have high crime? I can see countries that are too poor for people to buy guns might not be helped by legal guns, but that is not our situation here.


Second, I think we differ on the long term (like over 1 year) result of the Federal government going away. Most of the harm to the economy (taxes and harmful regulations) are coming from the Federal level. It is like a drag or overhead to the economy. If that is gone then long term I think the economy will be much better off. Growth rates are better for countries with smaller governments. See URL:

http://pair.offshore.ai/38yearcycle/#governments

Note that when the USSR went away it did not result in anarchy, at least not longer than a year. And in most places the economies are better off for it having gone.

The state governments are in financial trouble, but not nearly to the level that the Federal government is. I do not expect them to fail or go away.

Third, you are more worried about global warming, and destruction of nature, water, and farm land problems than I am. These seem to me like much longer term issues and not the main problems for the next 3 years. These might contribute some but when "dollar hyperinflation" and "federal government failing" are current events in the newspaper, global warming will not be front page news.

Fourth, I seem to have more faith in capitalism and free markets. To me some people just see the magic of how markets work and some don't. If you really get markets then you see how all kinds of government actions cause problems. But you might argue that it is just looking for evidence to support a belief. I don't really expect this is something that we can have a "meetings of the mind" on. So I rather work on the other points. :-)

Fifth, we differ in concerns about armed invasion. I like the Swiss model that if enough people have guns then Hitler does not invade. I am not saying that where I live has enough guns, but I think if things start to go bad they soon would. Small groups attacking are not all that different from normal crime. An attacker in a boat has to make it to land and then to someplace to steal something, attack that location, make it back to the boat, and get away. This would not be easy if many locals have guns.

Sixth. My floating house plans are solar and electric. Making water from salt water is a solved problem (go to westmarine.com and search "water maker"). Having a couple years supply of food and also being able to fish means you could stay a really long time. Also, slow moving objects in the ocean attract fish. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_aggregating_device

And you can find out which places are stable and only go near those for supplies. Even then you could pay someone to bring supplies out to you.

You almost seem to expect commerce to fail, and this is related to my faith in capitalism. I also know of no time in history where at least barter level trade was not going on. Even outlawing commerce just results in a "black market", not the elimination of commerce. Government attempts to "fight hyperinflation" result in a black market.

Since only the US gets the benefit of printing US dollars, I do not expect most places to fight to make people keep using dollars. So most places will just switch to other money as the dollar starts to go. Judging from gold and silver, this may already be starting really, at least at the level of SLV and a Visa that I mentioned previously.
Lily
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Lily »

I agree that, among *peaceful* societies, individuals having weapon rights does drive down crime. But if you think that easy availability of arms during times of serious shortages of basic needs will produce less rather than more violence, your commitment to your ideology has driven you off the deep end. If people are starving and they have guns, they will use them to threaten, rob, and fight each other.
You mention Mexico but it seems that really people can get a 22 and not more. So it is really like they can not have guns, because you are probably better off with a sword than a 22 most of the time.
I do not know what you are smoking here. There is easy availability of weapons into Mexico, and the cartels are heavily armed with military-grade weaponry already. Since Mexico has strict gun laws, the citizenry are mostly disarmed while the criminals are armed to the teeth. This is not a recipie for a peaceful society.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 9992.story
Do you know of a not-dirt-poor, non-revolution, country were it is easy for regular law abiding citizens to get real guns (for many years and not just 22) that have high crime? I can see countries that are too poor for people to buy guns might not be helped by legal guns, but that is not our situation here.
This strikes me as a bit niave. Crime correlates more strongly with poverty than any other factor, so 'non-dirt-poor' is actually a pretty important qualifer. But after the crash in the US, people here WILL be dirt poor, and fast. We'll be no different from the rest of the world after the dollar loses its position. Places that are 'dirt-poor' that have problems with high violence because of easy availability of weapons include Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Algeria, Angloa, the DR Congo, Somalia, Sudan, Columbia, Indonesia, Iraq, Uganda, Etheopia, Nigeria, Mexico, and surely some I'm missing! Many of these countries have also been under 'anarchic' conditions for several years now.

The US has all those countries beat for easy availability of weapons. I think that's great during peacetime, and I wouldn't take it away during wartime - but it's going to be pretty inconvenient when things go to shit.
Second, I think we differ on the long term (like over 1 year) result of the Federal government going away. Most of the harm to the economy (taxes and harmful regulations) are coming from the Federal level. It is like a drag or overhead to the economy. If that is gone then long term I think the economy will be much better off. Growth rates are better for countries with smaller governments.
Certainly the government drag effect on private entrepeneurship is very real, but it's not the only thing keeping the economy from booming! Reality is a little more messy than that, unfortunately. Corporations are just as capable of running roughshod over individual economic and civil liberties as the state, and perhaps even more willing to do so.

Claiming that if you just slash the Federal Government, employment and prosperity will magically boom because of the free market fairy is a common Republican tactic, and it's totally false. Our problems go deeper than that! You can't wish away the piss-poor education of our labor force and the serious capital and liquidity restraints holding back the private sector, and you can't wish away shortages of basic materials needed for life. It takes more than getting rid of something bad to produce a prosperous society.
Note that when the USSR went away it did not result in anarchy, at least not longer than a year. And in most places the economies are better off for it having gone.
No, but a) their population was disarmed and b)the global economy helped them out quite a lot. We will have the opposite effect.
Third, you are more worried about global warming, and destruction of nature, water, and farm land problems than I am. These seem to me like much longer term issues and not the main problems for the next 3 years. These might contribute some but when "dollar hyperinflation" and "federal government failing" are current events in the newspaper, global warming will not be front page news.
Well, global warming won't be a major problem for a while yet, but other environmental problems will be. The water shortage is a real problem with a really short time frame, like within a year or two from now, and the collapse of world agriculture is happening NOW and is driving the unrest in the Middle East and North Africa, so that's definitely one of the 'main problems.' Dismissing water shortages and food shortages that will effect large portions of the world population as "not front page news" is silly; these things are literally changing the face of the world as we speak.
Fourth, I seem to have more faith in capitalism and free markets. To me some people just see the magic of how markets work and some don't. If you really get markets then you see how all kinds of government actions cause problems. But you might argue that it is just looking for evidence to support a belief. I don't really expect this is something that we can have a "meetings of the mind" on. So I rather work on the other points.
Quit being a believer, man. Be a skeptic instead. :) I used to be a hardcore anarcho-capitalist/minarchist libertarian type, so I know where you're coming from and I'm familiar with the discourse. But the truth of the matter is that while the market is very good at some things, it can be terribly harmful in some other ways if not properly supervised by an informed citizenry. I won't get into this one too much yet as it is a bit ideological, but all I'm saying for now is, just be willing to challenge your preconceptions on this point, and try to search out evidence that contradicts your own view, to see if there's anything to it! You will find more than you'd expected if you're willing to open your mind on this point; I did.
Fifth, we differ in concerns about armed invasion. I like the Swiss model that if enough people have guns then Hitler does not invade. I am not saying that where I live has enough guns, but I think if things start to go bad they soon would. Small groups attacking are not all that different from normal crime. An attacker in a boat has to make it to land and then to someplace to steal something, attack that location, make it back to the boat, and get away. This would not be easy if many locals have guns.
...unless the raiders just have way more guns. The cartels use commando tactics, operating in trained squadrons, in a coordinated way. I don't think a hodgepodge citizen militia is going to make much headway against the hardened, heavily armed criminal gangs that already exist in the region without at least a serious training overhaul and an infusion of heavy weapons.

For the boat, the missing piece is the fuel. Where will you get diesel, and what makes you confident there will be an unrestricted supply? Anyway, within 5 to 10 years, unless controls are instituted on local behavior, there won't be any sizable fish populations left in any open waters, anyway, so fishing is a short-term proposition at best.
You almost seem to expect commerce to fail, and this is related to my faith in capitalism. I also no of no time in history where at least barter level trade was not going on.
Explain to me what magic power capitalism has to keep going in circumstances as bad as those the US would be in after a hyperinflationary blast. :) Faith won't save you, man.

And barter trade will surely continue - but our economy relies on globalist trade patterns that will shortly be very substantially altered. You can't support a 14 trillion dollar GDP on barter; you'd be hard pressed to support a 3 trillion dollar GDP that way! So surely things are gonna get a bit dicey if barter is the best we can do.
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

Where and how to best survive a possible collapse is unknowable at this point.

The most important general variable needed to determine that is the scale and speed of any upcoming collapse. Also, the means by which it occurs is an important variable.

If the scale and speed of the collapse is large and sudden, location and preparations would need to be entirely different than a case in which the collapse is equally large and drawn out due to different mechanisms. And so on.

People sometimes point to the Great Depression as an example of where to relocate. Life in the rural dust bowl areas was very hard and a disproportionate number of banks in those areas failed. Life in the cities was relatively good. Knowing that is completely irrelevant to an upcoming collapse.

Probably the best thing to do at this point is to have various scenarios understood along with undertaking easy to implement strategies. For each scenario, have a plan in place for how to deal with that. As an example, let's say it's understood that pandemics could figure prominently in an upcoming collapse. If that's the predominant means by which a collapse occurs (and it very well could be even though it's not recognized now) then a remote island location is probably about as good as it gets. Once the pandemic reduces the population, a lot of other problems go away. Nature usually has a way of taking the most efficient route.

One of the big problems in all of this is that the locations that are the best post collapse are the worst pre collapse. That's almost by definition it seems. Nowadays things out on the periphery aren't very good due to the huge sucking sound coming from Washington. All of the resources are being sucked into the center of the system. Once Washington collapses and the vacuum is shut down, things will be pretty good out there, relatively speaking. But if one moves 10 years too early, they may not have many resources left once things really do shut down.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Lily wrote: I do not know what you are smoking here. There is easy availability of weapons into Mexico, and the cartels are heavily armed with military-grade weaponry already. Since Mexico has strict gun laws, the citizenry are mostly disarmed while the criminals are armed to the teeth. This is not a recipie for a peaceful society.
Criminals will always have guns. The strict gun laws just apply to law abiding citizens. This was exactly my point. Easily availability of legal guns to law abiding citizens reduces crime. Easy availability only to those who break the law does not reduce crime.
Lily wrote: This strikes me as a bit niave. Crime correlates more strongly with poverty than any other factor, so 'non-dirt-poor' is actually a pretty important qualifer. But after the crash in the US, people here WILL be dirt poor, and fast. We'll be no different from the rest of the world after the dollar loses its position. Places that are 'dirt-poor' that have problems with high violence because of easy availability of weapons include Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Algeria, Angloa, the DR Congo, Somalia, Sudan, Columbia, Indonesia, Iraq, Uganda, Etheopia, Nigeria, Mexico, and surely some I'm missing! Many of these countries have also been under 'anarchic' conditions for several years now.
In fact Afghanistan has gun control laws. Part of what the Americans have done is disarm the law abiding villagers and then complain that they don't help resist the Taliban.

Again, guns are always easily available to criminals. The question is can the good guys get serious guns legally. When they can crime seems to be lower.
Lily wrote: The US has all those countries beat for easy availability of weapons. I think that's great during peacetime, and I wouldn't take it away during wartime - but it's going to be pretty inconvenient when things go to shit.
I think you are wrong but we will probably find out. I think it is always better if the good guys can defend themselves and you never will disarm the criminals. In particular when the SHTF.
Lily wrote: I won't get into this one too much yet as it is a bit ideological, but all I'm saying for now is, just be willing to challenge your preconceptions on this point, and try to search out evidence that contradicts your own view, to see if there's anything to it! You will find more than you'd expected if you're willing to open your mind on this point; I did.
I think I have a reasonably open mind. If you know of URLs that contradict my miniarchy type view I am interested.
Lily wrote: For the boat, the missing piece is the fuel. Where will you get diesel, and what makes you confident there will be an unrestricted supply?
I am planning on solar and electric. I won't need fuel. With big propellers and moving slowly, like 2 MPH, it does not take much electricity to propel a floating house. So solar is really reasonable for what I am thinking of.

http://wiki.seasteading.org/index.php/P ... Efficiency
Lily wrote: Anyway, within 5 to 10 years, unless controls are instituted on local behavior, there won't be any sizable fish populations left in any open waters, anyway, so fishing is a short-term proposition at best.
I seriously doubt this. There will always be some kind of fish as long as the sun is growing algae in the ocean, and this is not going to stop. It might be we eat shark, or sardines, but there will be fish.
Lily wrote: Explain to me what magic power capitalism has to keep going in circumstances as bad as those the US would be in after a hyperinflationary blast. :) Faith won't save you, man.
Even with the most oppressive governments and hyperinflation destroying the currency, commerce has always gone on, just as the "black market". But in hyperinflation everyone ends up using the black market, in till in the end the government gives up on the old paper money and legalizes the black market.
Lily wrote: And barter trade will surely continue - but our economy relies on globalist trade patterns that will shortly be very substantially altered. You can't support a 14 trillion dollar GDP on barter; you'd be hard pressed to support a 3 trillion dollar GDP that way! So surely things are gonna get a bit dicey if barter is the best we can do.
I would not expect the Federal government to last through even a month of barter (nobody pays taxes when using barter), and after it is gone there would be nothing keeping people from using whatever money they want.

Again, I think it is really hard to have any degree of certainty about how bad things will really be. But previous hyperinflations give some clues.
thomasglee
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Location: Texas

Re: Financial topics

Post by thomasglee »

John,

I know you're a deflationist and I understand HOW you've arrived at your forecast, but at the same time, I often see you reference the Malthus effect. Would not the Malthus effect naturally lead to inflation? How do you get decreasing availability of certain goods and deflation at the same time? If you combine the Malthus effect and the effect of Peak Oil, I don't see how we avoid inflation.
Last edited by thomasglee on Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Psalm 34:4 - “I sought the Lord, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears.”
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

vincecate wrote:Again, I think it is really hard to have any degree of certainty about how bad things will really be. But previous hyperinflations give some clues.
In this thread, we talk a lot about the financial problems as if they're isolated. It seems to me that the financial problems being faced today are symptomatic of much larger problems (political and social) that can't go away by just changing the money system. That hasn't always been the case historically, or as much the case. Granted, the money system has been horribly mismanaged and is contributing to the other problems.

This is from a post I made over 2 years ago. It still seems to me that a complete restructuring of all systems might be required in order to achieve the next level of advancement.
On the subject of technology and the development of complex societies in general, we could look back to the heyday of the Roman empire and I believe that from a technological standpoint the Romans had the beginnings of a basic industrial society coming into form. As I understand it, the Romans had built water wheels that were capable of producing power and had invented a crude steam engine. Some might opine that the Romans were not able to make the transition to an industrial society because they did not have the proper political and social development in place to do so, and the cleansing process of the Dark Ages was required in order to develop the proper political and social framework that allowed the Industrial Revolution to take off about 15 centuries later. And as our society transitions from an industrial to an information society, might a similar cleansing and political and social development process be required?
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Lily
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:05 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Lily »

vincecate wrote:I think it is always better if the good guys can defend themselves and you will never disarm the criminals. In particular when the SHTF.
To be clear, I'm not arguing policy; I agree with you that citzens should be able to own firearms, and I think in peacetime it does reduce crime. But you can't tell me that in a situation of food, fuel, and water shortages, it's safer for both me and my crazy/desperate neighbors to have assault weapons than it is for neither of us to have them. Many, many people who are not criminals during normal times, and who thus don't have guns in countries where the government has taken that right away from them, become criminals when circumstances are desperate. In places where guns are easy to get, these new criminals get and use them, and where guns are difficult to get that happens less often.

I'm not saying that that's a reason to restrict gun ownership; I'm saying it's a danger factor when considering the fate of those societies that do not restrict it. Do you know how easy it is to get assault weapons in many places in the US? How many people who really shouldn't have one will get one when they think themselves or their families are in potential danger? What happens when you give guns en masse to scared/emotional people, let alone to desperate people? Just because our freedoms are good, don't think they can't come back to bite us in the ass. :)

After Katrina, high supplies of weapons among the populace did not at all make for increased personal safety during the breakdown of civil society, I will tell you that for a fact.
vincecate wrote:I think I have a reasonably open mind. If you know of URLs that contradict my miniarchy type view I am interested.
Well, I don't want to start bombing you with propaganda too much, but I'd strongly suggest that you watch the movie 'Gasland,' then see if you can still tell me that it's appropriate for large corporations to engage in potentially very dangerous behavior without close supervision by the public, administered by the state. Or examine any of the copious literature of documentaries and books about the various corruptions of the pharmeceutical, financial, biotech, security, agricultural, energy, and health industries and the state agencies that collude with them, and see if you can still stomach the argument that restrictions on their behavior are a violation of their rights. Gasland is probably the best start you can make, though. Beyond that, just gather as much information as you can about things that are rarely discussed in most right-leaning circles, especially environmental problems, and perhaps you'll start to wonder if it makes sense to allow people liberties without imposing upon them some minimal consequent responsibilities.

My position is that the right, including libertarians, are correct that the State is a major threat to our freedoms and rights, and the left is correct that many (NOT all) corporations are a threat to our freedoms and possibilities of prosperity. But getting libertarians to admit that capitalism can cause grevious harm, or getting socialists to admit that the government can cause grevious harm, is like trying to get a cat to hop-skotch. :)
vincecate wrote: I seriously doubt this. There will always be some kind of fish as long as the sun is growing algae in the ocean, and this is not going to stop. It might be we eat shark, or sardines, but there will be fish.
Doubt it all you want; it's a fact. As of this moment we have already decimated shark populations in the world's oceans - the population of sharks in the wild has been reduced by **90%** since the 50s.

You really, really should take the time to watch this documentary.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/end-of-l ... hout-fish/
Unless our behavior radically changes, *all* major world fish stocks will be essentially completely depleted by 2050, and most will progressively and sharply deteriorate long before then. We've already lost the Great Lakes to algal blooms and invasive predators; you can no longer catch edible fish in them. This stuff is real, man. Fishing on a small scale in marginal environments is not a sustainable way to acquire enough food to survive.

This one is about sharks in case you don't believe me about the 90% decline. :) http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/sharkwater/
vincecate wrote:Even with the most oppressive governments and hyperinflation destroying the currency, commerce has always gone on, just as the "black market". But in hyperinflation everyone ends up using the black market, in till in the end the government gives up on the old paper money and legalizes the black market.
Yeah? So once we're reduced to buying food and water and gas from informal and mysterious tough guys, at absurd and volatile prices, you're saying all it will take to save us is for the state to stop arresting the black markeeters? Doesn't it seem more likely that simply legalizing a new currency won't resolve the underlying conditions of poverty and resource shortages? You cannot eat gold.
vincecate wrote:Again, I think it is really hard to have any degree of certainty about how bad things will really be. But previous hyperinflations give some clues.
Why the epistemological skepticism when we have so much useful information? John's given us an excellent, crystal-clear and powerful paradigm for understanding the dynamics of history, you and Higgenbotham have provided an excellent analysis of the likely economic outcome of the crisis, and tons and tons of information exists openly on all the various related topics - so we should be able to just weight evidence, draw the logical consequences, and get a pretty clear idea where we might be headed.
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