Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

Although a true and accurate assessment it is, I think Bob's heart is good. He's just lost, like many many others. They've let emotions override reasons. Maybe both sides have to some degree. And that's the turning. Getting closer to maximum chaos to burn away the accumulated detritus. But for the life of me I never would have believed the worst aspects would be propagated by the educated, cosmopolitan intellectuals. Putting blind emotions above reason has resulted in an insanity of mass appeal. And in another 60+ years it will be read about but believed unable to happen again. Maybe then the theory of the generational turning will be proven with... a possibility to avert it? We'll never know

The below is from an exchange I had with Bob last June. Since we are again talking about the "bad police" problem that appears to have created the BLM movement, here is my previous comment:

Navigator wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:13 pm Bob,

I think you actually got to the root cause of the problem: Police UNIONS. If people really want the police (or, on a different note, the school systems) to change, then they have to de-UNIONIZE. This is the only way to be able to root out the bad apples.

And there are plenty of bad apples.

I was on a jury once where we were being asked to convict someone solely on the word of a SINGLE policeman. This is in a state where secret recording is legal ( so he should have recorded the alleged confession). Fortunately, I was able to convince the rest of the jury that I didn't want to live somewhere where a single cop could have me convicted, based solely on his "word". I should also point out that no other policeman involved in the situation would lie to corroborate the "single witness".

I agree that there is some merit in the current social outrage. I have had some pretty negative interactions with police officers. And I'm a older white guy with disabled veteran license plates. I can't fully imagine what a young black male has to go through. (this of course in NO WAY justifies looting and all the other criminal activity that this has enabled, and is in fact completely counter-productive).

I saw a great article the other day on some poor black guy who is a wildlife photographer in San Francisco having to deal with the police being called on him regularly by the local residents near the parks where he works.

The whole thing about the left is HYPOCRISY. They won't fix the police because they can't admit that unionizing them was an unbelievably bad mistake. They won't fix the schools for the same reason.

They rant against racism, but they are the ones calling the police when a black person is in "their" neighborhood.

Note that IMHO, there are indeed bad police, many of whom do bad things based on the race of the person they are dealing with. Police Departments know who these people are, yet are unable to deal with them due to the UNIONs.

On the other hand, Democratic mayors and city councils preventing police from protecting property during riots and looting have only emboldened the lawless and have left many metro areas in ruins. There is NO justification for the looting, and there is NO justification for not allowing the police to arrest and for the cities to prosecute looters. These politicians are playing to the Mob, and are failing to protect the lives and property of their citizens. No one is going to start or rebuild a business in these downtown areas, and the result will be just more blight and poverty. Which helps No-One (except the politician involved in race baiting or worse).

John wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:25 pmThat's a lie...

I see most of BLM as following the non violent path. They are protesting to make politicians aware that they will get votes if they listen to the people. The Democrats are inclined to listen. Indeed, I vaguely recall the House passing a decent bill by BLM’s standard shortly after the protests began, but the Senate passed something considered unacceptable. Even then a Biden victory was foreseeable, so BLM was patient. I anticipate that before the weather gets warmer and the protest season starts again, something acceptable to BLM will be pushed by Biden. Right now, COVID, the economy, the cabinet approvals, and the second impeachment have priority. But I anticipate Biden does not want BLM unhappy when the protest season gets here.

Thus, I am with that part of BLM that has chosen the non violent path.

Antifa were originally anti facists. However, they were into violence. They were vigilantes. If the Neo Nazi or KKK occasionally got violent, was it just as well to have someone there who enjoyed a good brawl too? Not really. I am not enthused about violent groups, and do not support Antifa even if there are others I think less of.

The problem is that Antifa was always a loose bunch. As other groups have learned, the more you use social media to plan violent action, the more you get censored by social media companies. Anyone can use the name Antifa, and some tend to see Antifa where they don’t exist. One guy claimed to belong to the Boogaloo Bois, a pseudo militia, and Antifa all at once. There are people out there applying the Antifa label to themselves or having the Antifa name attached to them who are hardly anti fascist. Most of these I do not endorse.

So I am entirely ambivalent about Antifa.

Are all blues out there pure saints? Hardly. You can find people with mixed motivations: BLM, Antifa and looters. Here I will turn into a law and order guy. If the police find anyone breaking the law, arrest and prosecute. If the protestors don’t stick with the non violent way, arrest, charge, prosecute.

But the Capitol Police on January 6th did not take the Proud Bois, QAnon and others seriously enough. Red violence is real. There too, I am a law and order guy.

There is a big difference between having a differing position and calling the other guy a liar. I assure you I have not been advocating a position that I disagree with. There is just an assumption common here that all liberals / blues / Democrats think alike, that what any blue says can be applied to any of them. Not true. The Democrats are a big tent party. A lot of them have wildly divergent opinions. A lot of my supposed lies come from someone assuming my opinion is that of some other Democrat they have bumped into. Sometimes it is a result of xenophobia, assuming all members of the other tribe think alike in a way that is easy to refute. I would rather defend my actual opinions, thank you.

Also, Trump has a tendency to lie. Obama was not born in the US. Mexico will pay for the wall. The bug will magically disappear. You can cure the bug by drinking bleach. There was abundant systematic fraud in the 2020 election. Now I’m willing not to press this too hard if you grant me to have a legitimately felt opinion that these were all lies. I will predict no evidence will be presented of voter fraud in the second impeachment trial. I will predict that the fraud claim will slowly fade. I will leave it at that. Just acknowledge that this is the opinion of many blues, that somebody will be wrong, and having an opinion on who is wrong is still an opinion and not a lie.

FullMoon wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:57 pm Although a true and accurate assessment it is, I think Bob's heart is good. He's just lost, like many many others. They've let emotions override reasons. Maybe both sides have to some degree. And that's the turning. Getting closer to maximum chaos to burn away the accumulated detritus. But for the life of me I never would have believed the worst aspects would be propagated by the educated, cosmopolitan intellectuals. Putting blind emotions above reason has resulted in an insanity of mass appeal. And in another 60+ years it will be read about but believed unable to happen again. Maybe then the theory of the generational turning will be proven with... a possibility to avert it? We'll never know

After the US Revolution, we never acknowledged kings again. After the US Civil War, we never accepted slavery again. After the Great Depression, we believed in regulating the economy, if not precisely how. After World War II, we agreed on a need for containment.

Almost by definition, conservatives think to continue whatever social structure exists. They are reluctant to admit problems that will change that structure. These do happen. Come the crisis, such problems come to a head and are solved.

Just allow the crisis problems to be solved. Don't try to pretend the problems are not real. Keep those aspects of the conservative culture that are honorable and that will allow you to build a big tent again someday.

Navigator wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:29 pmNote that IMHO, there are indeed bad police, many of whom do bad things based on the race of the person they are dealing with. Police Departments know who these people are, yet are unable to deal with them due to the UNIONs.

Agreed.

Navigator wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:29 pmOn the other hand, Democratic mayors and city councils preventing police from protecting property during riots and looting have only emboldened the lawless and have left many metro areas in ruins. There is NO justification for the looting, and there is NO justification for not allowing the police to arrest and for the cities to prosecute looters. These politicians are playing to the Mob, and are failing to protect the lives and property of their citizens. No one is going to start or rebuild a business in these downtown areas, and the result will be just more blight and poverty. Which helps No-One (except the politician involved in race baiting or worse).

A more real problem was that the feds were putting in forces that attracted violent reaction. The local mayors and govorners generally did not want those forces, and wanted local forces in place over which they had control. They got their way. The time of federal forces was relatively short.

Cool Breeze wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:24 pm

John wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:00 pm A couple of days ago, Biden made the idiotic decision to ban the phrase "China virus" from all federal documents. He probably thought that by being nice to China, China would be nice to us. Instead, China has sent several rounds of warplanes in Taiwan's airspace, and now is threatening war.

Leftist appeasement, indeed. Always results in the opposite happening. You'd have thought they'd have figured that out by now. But pussies don't, so they keep going. I wonder if Biden thinks he can "drag China out back behind the shed" - or if he just likes to threaten Americans with that line.

'China Virus' was a Trump phrase, possibly a way of shifting attention away from his own inaction. I'd guess Biden wanted to shift things away from Trump and use the scientific names.

Bob Butler wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:42 am A more real problem was that the feds were putting in forces that attracted violent reaction. The local mayors and govorners generally did not want those forces, and wanted local forces in place over which they had control. They got their way. The time of federal forces was relatively short.

So the mayors didn't want to enforce the laws, so the feds send in forces to protect federal property (courthouses and office buildings). And then they "attracted violent reaction".

I would say anything that "attracts violent reaction" is wrong. Allowing any kind of violence and looting is wrong. These mayors (and sometimes even the governors) are playing to a violent mob. Doing this only encourages MORE "violent reaction".

Navigator wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:58 pm

Bob Butler wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:42 am A more real problem was that the feds were putting in forces that attracted violent reaction. The local mayors and govorners generally did not want those forces, and wanted local forces in place over which they had control. They got their way. The time of federal forces was relatively short.

So the mayors didn't want to enforce the laws, so the feds send in forces to protect federal property (courthouses and office buildings). And then they "attracted violent reaction".

I would say anything that "attracts violent reaction" is wrong. Allowing any kind of violence and looting is wrong. These mayors (and sometimes even the governors) are playing to a violent mob. Doing this only encourages MORE "violent reaction".

Local control, a single unified effort, ended up pretty much universal. It was feared that the federal effort at law and order was intended to propagate violence rather than end it, was political more than real. Whether there is any truth to that, we don’t know. At any rate, the federal effort soon ended. The no ID prison guards, border guards and port inspectors soon returned to the jobs they were trained for.

I read one feel good story about a 10 year old kid gamer whose mother had bought him a gift of Gamestop stock just to teach him about money. All of a sudden some computer alarms that had been set regarding the stock price started going crazy. Even a 10 year old immediately responded. “Sell!”

Yes. I expect some feel bad stories shortly.

Guest wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:02 am

In his first remarks following the November election, in which the GOP defied expectations and made gains in the House, Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), the House Minority Leader, declared, “This election cycle has made one thing clear: "The Republican Party is now the party of the American worker.”

And AOC and BIden and the Democratic Party are now the party of the illegal immigrant.

I have the pertinent problems as viewed by the blue as COVID, the economic fallout of COVID, systematic racism, red violence, and global warming. They would be in favor of solving these problems, where Trump let them all ride, stuck with the current power structure. This would make the Democratic Party the party of finding a cure, fixing the economy, helping minorities, ending the violence, saving the planet, and of late preserving democracy. In spite of McCarty's claims, the Republicans have always been the party of the elite, the Democrats of the worker.

I probably shouldn't describe the view of the Republicans, except they are obstructing all of the above. They became obsessed with making the Democrats look bad by not letting them achieve anything, which is a problem as the Democrats are trying to help America. Not sure how conservatives are going to become a big tent party again, but they will, and they will have to lose the obstructionism first.

So what do you see yourself fighting for? I see a lot of people seeing war, collapse and obstruction?