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Re: $7.7 trillion

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:34 am
by JLak
John wrote: I actually wasn't joking at all.

But it has nothing to do with "Fundamentalist Muslim" nations. Most
other Muslim nations are in generational Crisis eras, and they're as
bad off as everyone else -- Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait,
etc.

This has nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with "bankrupt
ideologies," and nothing to do with religion.
John
Okay. Agreed. This makes sense in terms of their neighbors' plight - but to me only in hindsight apparently. Also, let me clarify that 'bankrupt ideology' refers to both the tide of Marxism sweeping the western world and the Muslim fundamentalism which I hope you are right about being in decline. I admit that these are value judgments and would not stand the scrutiny of cultural relativism. It will be interesting to see how the many generational timelines of the Middle East resolve together. If the region resolves into a generalized awakening, then it should be a more attractive target for investment than Europe which is headed for another violent conflagration like clockwork.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:49 pm
by John
-- Daryl Guppy- CNBC.com
-- Identifying Capitulation: How to Tell We've Hit Bottom

I came across a fairly detailed explanation of what "capitulation"
is, what those who "believe" in capitulation are looking for. It was
written by Daryl Guppy, a technical analyst at CNBC:
Daryl Guppy wrote: > Are we there yet? This is the key question and it relates to
> finding the bottom of the market.

> In many ways it's a pointless question. Even if we could identify
> the turning point in the market with a high level of certainty,
> there are very few people with the courage to enter at these low
> points.

> The more important thing to look for are the features that will
> help to identify, first, the end of the market fall and second,
> the development of a market recovery. These two events may be
> separated by a few months, or by many months.

> There are two important features that identify climax selling.
> The first is the rapid acceleration in the speed of the market
> fall. Like a Stuka dive-bomber, the market first rolls over slowly
> and then plunges in a vertical dive. This is fear at work.

> The second feature is a massive increase in volume. This is
> panic. Ordinary people are desperate to get out of the market.
> Generally the funds and institutions got out of the long-side of
> the market many months ago. The selling in January and February
> was dominated by institutions and funds. The current panic selling
> is thousands of small orders from retail investors desperate to
> get out of the market.

> During the bear market collapse, volumes decline. Fewer people
> want to buy stock so volatility increases because small trades
> have a disproportionate impact in a shallow market.

> This selling climax shakes out all the weak hands in the market.
> It kills the margin speculators. It wipes out those who have
> finally lost patience. It removes the speculative money in the
> market because people think the risk is too great. This is also
> called capitulation. Everybody gives up – and it influences the
> thinking of a generation. My parents, who lived through the
> depression, could never entirely shake the idea that the market
> was a dangerous place.

Image

> The activity in the Dow Jones Industrial Average and other global
> markets shows an acceleration of downwards momentum. The massive
> increase in volume has not yet developed and this suggests the
> market bottom is not yet established. There is a high probability
> that markets will see a selling climax in the next 3 to 5 days.
> But here is the important difference. The recovery rally after
> climax selling is temporary. It is part of a longer-term
> consolidation pattern that may last months, or even a year, and
> make more new lows before a new sustainable uptrend can develop.
> The potential shape of the recovery is shown in the chart. The
> bull market rebound rally follows a temporary selloff. A bear
> market rebound rally follows climax selling. It is a relief
> really, but it is not part of a sustainable trend change.

> After a bear market, volumes remain low. When you lose trillions
> of dollars it takes a long time for spare change to start rattling
> around the economy again. Spare change drives the bull market
> because money is available for speculation.

> In the immediate bear market recovery period the market is
> dominated by professionals. Finance industry professionals are
> already being laid off. The least effective are the first to be
> let go. Only the best will survive the employment washout in the
> industry and these will be the ones defining the behavior of the
> consolidation and recovery market.
> http://remnant888.blogspot.com/2008/11/ ... -tell.html
It's interesting that he expects "capitulation" within the next 3-5
days. If I'm not mistaken, CNBC has predicted imminent capitulation
for several months now.

John

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:12 pm
by freddyv
Basically everything these expert analysts write is rubbish and Generation Dynamics tells you why: they don't have the life experience to know what a "real" financial crisis looks like and they aren't imaginative enough to step outside of what they know. They are not only wrong but are a big part of the problem, or at least are a crucial part of the dynamic that brings us to this mess.

Capitulation during the 30's and then in the 70's only happened when volume dropped and the masses ceased to believe that the stock market was a good investment. That only happened when PE ratios went to extremely low levels as did book values and dividend yields.

By historical standards we are just now entering a period where stocks are near mean averages so we should expect a continued drop in stock prices to at least 4,000 on the Dow. Depending on how much excess was really in the system (it certainly appears to be even greater than in 1929) a drop to nearly, or even below 1,000 is not out of the question. If we were to drop the same percentage as in 1929-1932 we would bottom at around 1500.

The big question I have is: why isn't the economy worse? Not having lived through the Great Depression I am hard-pressed to answer this but just as the stock market gets to where it's going over time, rather than all at once, I suppose the "main street" economy must also get to where it is going over a period of time.

John wrote:-- Daryl Guppy- CNBC.com
-- Identifying Capitulation: How to Tell We've Hit Bottom

I came across a fairly detailed explanation of what "capitulation"
is, what those who "believe" in capitulation are looking for. It was
written by Daryl Guppy, a technical analyst at CNBC:
Daryl Guppy wrote: > Are we there yet? This is the key question and it relates to
> finding the bottom of the market.

> In many ways it's a pointless question. Even if we could identify
> the turning point in the market with a high level of certainty,
> there are very few people with the courage to enter at these low
> points.

> The more important thing to look for are the features that will
> help to identify, first, the end of the market fall and second,
> the development of a market recovery. These two events may be
> separated by a few months, or by many months.

> There are two important features that identify climax selling.
> The first is the rapid acceleration in the speed of the market
> fall. Like a Stuka dive-bomber, the market first rolls over slowly
> and then plunges in a vertical dive. This is fear at work.

> The second feature is a massive increase in volume. This is
> panic. Ordinary people are desperate to get out of the market.
> Generally the funds and institutions got out of the long-side of
> the market many months ago. The selling in January and February
> was dominated by institutions and funds. The current panic selling
> is thousands of small orders from retail investors desperate to
> get out of the market.

> During the bear market collapse, volumes decline. Fewer people
> want to buy stock so volatility increases because small trades
> have a disproportionate impact in a shallow market.

> This selling climax shakes out all the weak hands in the market.
> It kills the margin speculators. It wipes out those who have
> finally lost patience. It removes the speculative money in the
> market because people think the risk is too great. This is also
> called capitulation. Everybody gives up – and it influences the
> thinking of a generation. My parents, who lived through the
> depression, could never entirely shake the idea that the market
> was a dangerous place.

Image

> The activity in the Dow Jones Industrial Average and other global
> markets shows an acceleration of downwards momentum. The massive
> increase in volume has not yet developed and this suggests the
> market bottom is not yet established. There is a high probability
> that markets will see a selling climax in the next 3 to 5 days.
> But here is the important difference. The recovery rally after
> climax selling is temporary. It is part of a longer-term
> consolidation pattern that may last months, or even a year, and
> make more new lows before a new sustainable uptrend can develop.
> The potential shape of the recovery is shown in the chart. The
> bull market rebound rally follows a temporary selloff. A bear
> market rebound rally follows climax selling. It is a relief
> really, but it is not part of a sustainable trend change.

> After a bear market, volumes remain low. When you lose trillions
> of dollars it takes a long time for spare change to start rattling
> around the economy again. Spare change drives the bull market
> because money is available for speculation.

> In the immediate bear market recovery period the market is
> dominated by professionals. Finance industry professionals are
> already being laid off. The least effective are the first to be
> let go. Only the best will survive the employment washout in the
> industry and these will be the ones defining the behavior of the
> consolidation and recovery market.
> http://remnant888.blogspot.com/2008/11/ ... -tell.html
It's interesting that he expects "capitulation" within the next 3-5
days. If I'm not mistaken, CNBC has predicted imminent capitulation
for several months now.

John

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:53 pm
by mark
After Thanksgiving dinner yesterday, a Gen-X relative and a Silent generation relative were seriously considering buying stocks while prices are low.

I don't think this is a sign of capitulation.

Does anyone else have similar stories?

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:54 pm
by John
From a web site reader:
> Your web site is the most accurate and understandable description
> of the economy I have found anywhere . This has been the most
> enjoyable site. Thank you for all of this. As a Harvard Business
> School graduate and McKinsey alumnus, I still struggle with where
> to safely place my assets. I have nothing in equities and haven't
> since last January. Then I found your site and started reading
> and learning. How is it possible that we are in a once in a
> century crisis, banks have failed, all investment banks are gone,
> and yet the P/E ratio is still above historical average. It is
> mind boggling. I keep asking myself if something has
> fundamentally changed, and I keep concluding no. Anyway, THANKS.
This writer makes a very interesting point: If the economy were in
good shape, then analysts who say that P/E ratios are OK might at
least be making sense.

But after a year of bank failures and other crises, how could ANYONE
possible invest in stocks when P/E ratios are so far above historical
averages?

Sincerely,

John

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:04 am
by mosullivan
As for a place to invexst, let me offer a resource that I have found most useful

www.treasurydirect.gov
you can purchase direct and with ease

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:34 am
by TheCoinCollector
Hey All,

Has anyone heard about a new monetary system replacing the Bretton Woods system that was proposed in the G20 Summit? A blue print on its design and function was submitted by some European nations and it was stated that there may be an international currency that will replace currencies of bankrupt countries including the US.
There's a speech by Congressman Ron Paul on the subject. http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=MVBFd9PbcNg

Cheers

Market Summary, Monday morning, December 1, 2008

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:44 am
by John
-- Market Summary, Monday morning, December 1, 2008

I heard many bizarre things over the weekend, or the sort: "We've now
had five consecutive sessions where the market ended higher. This
hasn't happened in decades. This means that the worst is over."

This incredible burst of optimism was apparently caused by Obama
giving three press conferences on three days in a row, presenting a
"take charge" attitude, reinforcing visceral feelings that the world
is going to change on January 21.

However, those press conferences were in the past, and are now long
forgotten. Today's Obama press conference is supposedly going to
address more mundane subjects, like the Mumbai bombings and national
security issues.

At this time, the Wall Street indexes are down 4-5%.

I've been hearing frequent mention of the $7.7 trillion dollar
figure.

** One, Two, Three ... Infinity
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 25#e081125


Analysts who were giggling last week in the glow of the man who could
walk on water are slowly but surely becoming much more cynical.

Sincerely,

John

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:33 pm
by The Grey Badger
Naah, Obama doesn't walk on water. He just takes off his glasses, suit and tie, and saves Metropolis from Lex Luthor in his many manifestations. :lol:

Re: Market Summary, Monday afternoon, December 1, 2008

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:49 pm
by John
President-elect Barack Obama gave a stirring press conference today.

Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke gave a scholarly speech today.

Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson gave a powerful speech today.

Each of these great events caused the market to fall further.

According to one analyst, referring to Paulson:
> This is a man consumed with triage more than anything else, who's
> putting bandaids on the problems.

Indexes at quarter to four are down 7-8%.

John