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Re: Financial topics

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:37 pm
by Reality Check
gerald wrote:
Reality Check wrote:BTW.

The Obama administration has proposed a solution to the problems of cities like Detroit.

Replace the Detroit city taxing district, with a much larger regional taxing district, that allows the huge population in the city to vote to tax the smaller, but richer, population and businesses in the surrounding suburban cities and towns, so the Detroit regional government can be controlled by the Detroit city politicians, and the Detroit city politicians will once again have a seemingly unlimited source of other peoples money to spend.
Not quite - the suburban population overwhelms the city -- the population of Detroit is not huge it is around 710,000 (down from a high of 1,800,000 in 1950 ) and the Detroit Metro population outside of Detroit is is around 3,600,000
( five times that of the city) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit

The proposed solution sounds like a prelude to civil war or revolution. I have talked at some length to people who moved from Detroit. Their expressions of fear and monetary loss was quite strong, mixed with anger.
If the federal government would try that, -- the city telling the suburbs what to do,-- the reaction could be something quite unexpected.
You make some excellent points. But, in the state of Washington, which I am familiar with, the methodologies to do this type of thing have been developed in law, regulation, and case law over the past two or three decades.

In the case of cities like Detroit, where the population is relatively small in the city itself, selectively targeting surrounding business areas where the number of employees and the value of the real property is high, but the number of residents is relatively small, could massively increase the tax base many times in terms of taxable real estate value, sales taxes based on where the sale is made at shopping malls and other retail businesses, and workers incomes subject to city income taxes based on where they worked, while avoiding the residential areas and the resulting massive increase in voters that would dilute the inner city vote. Once the city has the legal tools to absorb selective portions of the surrounding tax base, it can be selective in how it uses those tools.

Some examples from Washington state of existing tools for doing this type of thing:

1. Growth plans, for each city, are now mandated by state law. Once a city designates neighborhoods outside it's boundary as part of it's targeted growth area, as part of it's mandatory growth plan, and the plan is approved by the county, then, by state law, no other city can absorb those neighborhoods into it's city boundaries . The legal, economic and public policy theory of these statutes, regulations and case law is the idea that "controlled growth" is always better for the common good and more cost effective than uncontrolled growth. The county, in which the area targeted for city growth is located, must, by state law, approve one plan for that area when only one plan to grow into that area is submitted. Only if multiple plans, from multiple cities, to grow into the same area are submitted may the county modify or reject all but one of the plans. Once an area has been targeted and approved by the county as part of a cities growth plan, no other city may incorporate that targeted growth area and it is reserved for the growth of the approved city only. For this reason cities negotiate treaties to carve up the available growth areas and avoid duplicate requests that allow the country any opportunity to delay, modify or reject.

2. State law requires, that any property within so many hundreds of yards of a sewer line, must abandon it's septic tank, and at the property owner's sole cost and expense, pay to have the sewer system extended the remaining distance to their property, and pay the city to hook up to that sewer line, including paying off previous LID financing to pay the capital costs of extending the sewer line miles outside the city. Then, of course, additional property owners are within so many 100s of yards of where the first property owner paid to have the sewer line extended to. And so on, and so forth. Cities kindly finance these sewer expansions with bonds and allow the property owners to pay the capital costs ( principle plus interest, plus bond origination fees ) off over several decades ( or until the property is sold to a new owner). These capital costs become priority liens attached to the property and having a priority over mortgages, by state law. Municipal water and sewer services, by state law, may be extended down any street that is in a cities growth plan and targeted for the city's expansion. Cities extend municipal sewer and other municipal utility services miles at a time down roads outside their city limits ( but in their growth plan area ) with the ultimate goal of having property owners near those expanded utilities lines, but outside the city, "voluntarily" request utility service, and as part of that "voluntary request for service" agree to pay back "their portion" of the previously expended capital costs of extending those utilities miles outside the city, and also "volunteer" to join the city in the future, thus increasing both the cities utility customers and their tax base, while at the same time forcing the new customers to "voluntarily" pay the capital costs of extending the sewer service several miles down the road in the first place.

3. Utility coercion. City utilities such as sewer, and water, once extended to properties outside the city, give the cities a unique political and economic power over the property owners to which municipal utilities are now provided. Utilities, such as water and sewer, are monopolies in WA state. Both public and private utilities are monopolies. Private utilities are regulated as to price and policy, municipal and other "public utilities" are not. Courts have determined that once cities have provided utility services to a property outside the city limits, the cities can give their sewer and water customers ( the property owner served by the water or sewer utility ) a choice: "sign a power of attorney over to the city, to allow the city, at any time the city so desires, to petition the city, on behalf of the property owner, requesting the city extend the cities boundaries to include that property" or have your water and sewer turned off by the city until such time as you sign such a power of attorney and deliver it to the city. Revoking the power of attorney, or otherwise objecting to the voluntary request once the power of attorney is exercised by the city, will also result in all city utilities being shut off. Courts have upheld the power of the municipal utilities to make such demands a condition of providing utilities. Once such a power of attorney is signed, and exercised by the city, the only "vote" that must take place is the city council voting to add the "petitioners property" to the city. By state law no one, tenant or owner, can live in a home without proper sewer or septic tank service, and no septic tank can be allowed to exist on a property if a sewer line is available within so many 100s of yards.

Obviously the WA state examples do not address one city absorbing another. But it does demonstrate how creative state legislatures have become in "legally forcing" property owners outside of cities to "voluntarily" pay, after the fact, the capital costs, plus interest and fees, of extending city utility services many miles down streets ( streets that are outside of the city limits ) so that those utility lines will now be near properties that are miles outside the city , and also "legally forcing" the same property owners to then "voluntarily" request the city to add their property to the city's tax base.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:48 pm
by Reality Check
gerald wrote: The proposed solution sounds like a prelude to civil war or revolution. I have talked at some length to people who moved from Detroit. Their expressions of fear and monetary loss was quite strong, mixed with anger.
The population of the United States has been increasing at a brisk rate. Population being the number people living in the United States, not the number of people with United States citizenship.

Yet for the first time in 80 years fewer people are working today, than four years ago.

The average family of four now owes more than $160,000 in public federal government debt. And that number is increasing by $16,000 a year.

Even so more than 40% of the American voters are more than happy to reward the President that presided over that disaster with a second term. Some polls say more than 50% are happy with his performance.

The United States citizens used to be able to hold their elected leaders responsible for their actions by voting the bums out. Apparently no more.

If they will not even vote against that kind of disaster, I doubt they will start a civil war over who gets to tax the suburbs of Detroit.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:31 pm
by aedens
If you dig deeper into Detroit the Balkinization is not complete.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:03 pm
by OLD1953
The personal solution to cities that cherry pick suburban malls and such areas to target for annexation is simple enough, move across the county line. That's exactly what I did, even at my age I'm fairly certain I could hit a baseball into Shelby county from my back yard, but the cities of Memphis and Millington can't annex across that invisible line. Oddly enough, property in my little slice that's as close to the county line as you can get hasn't dropped in value much if at all. Comparing taxes where I live with houses only 20 minutes away is rather eye popping.

Cities are interesting things in history. They are the centers of education and of industry and have been for thousands of years. I'd be reluctant to write off the idea of cities just yet, the personal interaction in wandering city streets is still far more stimulating than what you'll get off the internet, it's too easy to isolate yourself in an idea "moat" on the internet, building a "castle wall" around yourself and your opinions that is nearly impregnable to fact. That's why I like this place, I can list facts and data that go contrary to peoples opinions or expectations and it's actually read and discussed, not dismissed or downplayed as false or biased. Polite discussion in person is common, but rare on the internet.

Detroit is a city that was built for manufacturing near the sources of Lake Superior hematite iron ore. When the ores played out the city declined. It is possible for it to make a comeback now as hematites have played out world wide, and the taconite regions (as in Minnesota) now ship pre smelted iron pellets to manufacturing locations. This would likely require serious modifications to the current city planning groups, who all seem to be planning for infinite decline down to a single taxpayer or so it would appear from this distance. If the city planners would shift from focussing on high income earners to a focus on large numbers of low wage earners it might make a difference. In other words, instead of expanding to increase tax revenue, expansion that maintained the current revenues with lowered rates might be a possibility if projections showed people were more willing to move into the city rather than leave due to excessive taxes.

The tax system in the USA is distorted beyond belief, and frankly needs a rebuild from the ground up. Whenever that is tried we have an influx of lobbyists to whomever is in charge that is simply incredible. The most effective means of raising income for politicians and lobbyists is simply to announce creation of a committee on tax reform. Such has become a guaranteed means of unequal taxes and bigger deficits. How to convene a panel on taxation at any level of government that avoids the lobbying problem is beyond my imagination. You cannot create a reasonable tax system with input from the people who will be taxed, because none of them want any taxes, every single one at every income level has rationalized why they should pay nothing but get free service from every other taxpayer.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:06 am
by gerald
OLD 1953 -- Sorry --

County lines do not guarantee a city will not annex across the county line. Chicago is primarily in Cook County but it did annex part of DuPage county.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:09 am
by gerald
Regarding Detroit, as a side note, or may be not a side note, there is a very interesting 50 minute video by Dr. Fleming, a Black resident of Detroit, about Blacks, Detroit, and history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkFPN5zU ... re=related

To say the least Dr. Fleming is very blunt, and some of what he says is quite surprising.

Some of the comments --

Whites built Detroit
Whites invited blacks into Detroit

There are two kinds of blacks ---
The first group are thinkers, business people, builders, tradesmen, artisans, etc.
The second group are the "natural slaves", who really do not want to be free, and have a mentality of robbers, destroyers, killers, etc.

The first group came first and contributed to Detroit starting around 1930.
The second group came later starting around the late 1940's leading to Detroit's decline.

The second group pushed the whites and the first group of blacks out of Detroit.

A description of the old plantation slave structure and how it is being used today.
The roll of religion and how it is used in a destructive way, and the importance of knowing your "Akashic record" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records

Plus more, very interesting.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:55 am
by aedens
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-0 ... e-they-now

Looking a few hundred year into the future these will be the shining example of glass eyed historical retards.

Meanwhile not a word on what is.
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/12386/mus ... ugust-2012

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:32 am
by OLD1953
Yes, Muslims in the MidEast routinely treat Christians and Jews like crap. This is not news, and would not have been news 100 years ago. However, Israel also treats Christians in Palestine like crap, this is throughly documented, and we never hear about that either. Our news media is either afraid or just worthless, take your pick.

The patent office as a bar to innovation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/08/techn ... d=all&_r=0

Which is exactly why I keep complaining here about it being broken.

My point on the reductions in government were simply that the first to be cut are always teachers and police. Teachers who used to have 4 classes per day and 2 periods to grade work are now expected to do 6 classes and grade work at home. With pay cuts. Of course they get mad, who among us would not? Police have had similar reductions to the point of nearly disgoverning some areas of certain cities. And with stress as high in society as it is now, people tend to binge drink and get crazy when they do.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Man-d ... 927717.php

Net result will be the courts will OK the cops taking off the kid gloves and getting rough. Which is approved of only when you aren't the one on the receiving end. But nobody will create jobs in an area that's out of control, and it costs money to get the place under control. National Guard on the streets may be a short term fix, but they can't stay forever. And who pays? Saying "jail them all" means the state pays, and the state is broke. In fact, about 2/3 of the states are flat broke, according to news stories I've read recently. Without federal help they'd be declaring bankruptcy. I don't see any easy fixes for these issues.

What would unemployment be if the prisons were not so full? There's an essay question for an economics class, what would happen to the US economy if we only jailed the same percentage of our citizens as China does? Just something to think about.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:57 am
by Reality Check
OLD1953 wrote:The personal solution to cities that cherry pick suburban malls and such areas to target for annexation is simple enough, move across the county line. That's exactly what I did, even at my age I'm fairly certain I could hit a baseball into Shelby county from my back yard, but the cities of Memphis and Millington can't annex across that invisible line. Oddly enough, property in my little slice that's as close to the county line as you can get hasn't dropped in value much if at all. Comparing taxes where I live with houses only 20 minutes away is rather eye popping.
gerald wrote:OLD 1953 -- Sorry --

County lines do not guarantee a city will not annex across the county line. Chicago is primarily in Cook County but it did annex part of DuPage county.

This is a state law issue. It would vary state by state.

The bad news is, that even in states which do not currently allow cities to grow across county lines, such a state law could be changed to allow cities to grow across county lines and voters would likely not even notice. Because it does not affect very many people, the voters as a whole do not care.

It sounds like the solution worked well in Tennessee. But some folks might incur the cost of selling their property and buying new only to find the state legislature changed the laws over night and no one noticed.

Re: Financial topics

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:02 pm
by aedens
Confine yourself to observing and you always miss the point of your own life since only a Jurist can ignore the Judge, thus we are to suffer the fate the Book as warned from the kindled flame to a consuming fire. Have we not studied countless worlds here. How tempting it is to raise high walls and keep out change. Rot of our own self-satisfied comfort has overtaken reason. The cycle is not complete.

Ask one who survived on facts not intent. http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2012/10/i ... art-i.html

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-0 ... taken-over
three nails
“What we should grasp, however, from the lessons of European history is that, first, there is nothing necessarily benevolent about programmes of European integration; second, the desire to achieve grand utopian plans often poses a grave threat to freedom; and third, European unity has been tried before, and the outcome was far from happy.”
Margaret Thatcher, People might not like Maggie but that does not stop her being right.

http://chinascope.org/main/content/blogcategory/13/103/
This unwind rate to events is simply unreal to trend and anticipate actionary change.
Burn rate comes to mind only.