Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

Reality Check wrote:
Higgenbotham wrote: The definition of solvency should not be arbitrary, but it is what it is.
But I am sure the statement of "but it is what it is" is not correct.
Let's say a bank has some US government bonds on their balance sheet and those bonds have a quoted market price at the end of each period when the bank is determining the value of its assets. But rather than using that quoted price, the rules allow the bank to mark the bonds at the price the bank paid. Perhaps some excuse is given, like the rule was made because the bank will hold the bonds to maturity.

Then let's assume that the actual value of the government bonds falls markedly, as occurred in Florence in the 1340's and under the arbitrary rules the banks continue to mark their bonds at the price they paid, and therefore their balance sheet marked, according to the rules, shows them to be solvent - assets exceed liabilities - when in fact, according to the marketplace, the banks are not solvent.

That's a very simplistic example of what I mean by, "The definition of solvency should not be arbitrary, but it is what it is."
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Reality Check
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Higgenbotham wrote:
That's a very simplistic example of what I mean by, "The definition of solvency should not be arbitrary, but it is what it is."
I am very familiar with the "mark to market rules" and how they changed, before the current ongoing financial crisis started, and how they were selectively enforced, and not enforced during that same ongoing crises. They have also changed during the current ongoing financial crisis and there have been several official announcements of ways they will be changed again, in different ways during the ongoing crisis ( some of which have now been completely dropped ).

None of that changes the point that the definition of insolvency in a bank is nothing more than what the government enforcing those rules elects it to be at the time they make the decision to enforce, or not enforce, the rule.

Here we may have two disagreements.

Many, perhaps most, laws and regulations, are arbitrary. Not sure I believe they all should not be so. Justice requires everyone be held to the same rules, some rules by their nature are arbitrary, that does not by itself make them unjust or morally wrong.

But I am sure the statement of "but it is what it is" is not correct. The rules we are talking about are arbitrary, unique to the fractional reserve banking system, subject to change, and frequently changed. All those things make such a rule the exact opposite of: "it is what it is".

The biggest problem is the that a rule is changed at will, to achieve an objective the rule was not created to achieve, and a rule is enforced, or not enforced, at will, and again for the purpose of achieving a goal that the rule was not created to achieve.

The markets are reacting to what the markets predict government(s) will choose to enforce, or not enforce, not the rules that are only selectively enforced.

Bank stocks plummeted at the start of the current, ongoing, financial crisis. Under any reasonable enforcement of then existing rules many of the largest banks were insolvent. When it became clear the government had no intention of enforcing those rules, the bank stocks rebounded.

The risk in the Cyprus banking crisis is that the monied class, the markets if you will, will perceive that the government elite's are willing at any moment, for their own interests, to change banking rules, and selectively enforce banking rules in a way that confiscate a bank's assets, the investments of bank bond holders, the investments of bank stock holders and the deposits of those with more than a 100,000 Euros deposited in all banks in the Euro-Zone.

Add to this the fact the Euro-Zone is wiling to allow, or even coerce, governments to have a bank holiday, followed by capital controls they prevent pulling investments out of a country, while selective asset confiscation is taking place over a period of months, and you have the makings of bank runs across Europe.
Higgenbotham
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

Reality Check wrote:None of that changes the point that the definition of insolvency in a bank is nothing more than what the government enforcing those rules elects it to be at the time they make the decision to enforce, or not enforce, the rule.
The government is not the only entity who can make a plausible determination of what insolvency means - depositors or potential customers can too. If the depositors know that the government is fudging the rules and saying that insolvent banks really are solvent - as in the case of the simplistic example I gave or the cases that exist today - depositors can withdraw their money or not place it to begin with. The decision to enforce or not enforce a determination of insolvency ultimately rests in the hands of the free market, and that will prevail over time.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Reality Check
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Generational filters on perceptions will have a lot to do with what happens as a result of Cyprus.

Generation Xers will have no problem with breaking the rules and screwing the Russian investors out of their money.

They will all so have no problem with screwing "those who can afford it" with bank accounts over 100,000 Euros out of their money.

But, if they perceive Cyprus from the point of view of what would I, as a generation Xer do, and who would I screw, if I had that kind of power, then they might consider pulling their money out of Euro-Zone banks.
Reality Check
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Higgenbotham wrote: The government is not the only entity who can make a plausible determination of what insolvency means - depositors or potential customers can too. If the depositors know that the government is fudging the rules and saying that insolvent banks really are solvent - as in the case of the simplistic example I gave or the cases that exist today - depositors can withdraw their money or not place it to begin with. The decision to enforce or not enforce a determination of insolvency ultimately rests in the hands of the free market, and that will prevail over time.
Based on what has happened since 2008, it would appear the opposite is true.
Reality Check
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Again, this is a matter of perception.

What was done in 2008, the breaking of the Rules by Obama, and others, was presented as "we had to do it" for the good of the people.

And the people bought it.

Once the people perceive the rules are being broken for the good of a few elites, at the expense of themselves, then you may see bank runs start in the U.S.
Last edited by Reality Check on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reality Check
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

What is now happening in Cyprus is a little different.

It is the investor class, not all the people, who are being targeted.

All the people vote at the ballot box.

The investor class votes with their money.

The key to what the on going Cyprus crises spawns, is how the portion of the investor class, that has deposits or investments in Euro-Zone banks, perceives what is about to happen in Cyprus.

If they perceive it as a risk of what the Euro-Zone politicians may do in Spain or Italy next, then that will be a big problem for Europe.
Higgenbotham
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

Reality Check wrote:Based on what has happened since 2008, it would appear the opposite is true.
The free market hasn't prevailed yet and 5 years is a long time, which attests to your point about the power of the government to define this situation and this being a matter of perception, and I also think faith in the FDIC has kept the lid on things in the US.

It's a part of the "business as usual" phenomenon.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Reality Check
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Higgenbotham wrote: The decision to enforce or not enforce a determination of insolvency ultimately rests in the hands of the free market, and that will prevail over time.
I absolutely agree with that statement.

However, the following are also true:

Ultimately we will all be dead. Ultimately can be a very long time.

It will be true, sooner, where markets are the most free.

It is strange, but true, that markets in Communist China are substantially more free today,
than in Western Europe or in the United States.
Reality Check
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Higgenbotham wrote: I also think faith in the FDIC has kept the lid on things in the US.
One also has to give "Helicopter Ben" his due.

There is a man that is willing to destroy the Financial System of the entire world to spare the people of the United States another 1930s style depression. Or, at the very least, delay it for them.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
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