Generational Dynamics Forum - New Site

Turkey has often been a puzzle to me because it's been exceptional in
several ways.

The last crisis war was World War I, leading to the collapse of the
Ottoman Empire in 1921, after six centuries.

Starting in the 1980s, there was a growing civil war with the PKK
Kurds. I could never satisfactorily evaluate this war, and changed
my mind several times as to whether it was a crisis war or a
non-crisis war.

My conclusion today is that it was a crisis war for the Kurds, but
not for the Turks. A crisis war for the Turks would have to involve
Istanbul, and the PKK war was far from Istanbul.

The new hostility to China following the recent Xinjiang violence
between the Uighurs and the Han China is a dramatic development. It
will be interesting to see whether that hostility continues to
develop.

Here are some articles that I've written on Turkey:

** Turkey's President Erdogan accuses China of genocide in Xinjiang
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 13#e090713

** Consequences of Russia/Georgia conflict spread to southern Caucasus
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 03#e080903

** Turkey invades PKK Kurd region of northern Iraq
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 23#e080223

** As Turkey prepares to invade northern Iraq, it's isolating itself internationally
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 29#e071029

** More than a million of secularists rally in Turkey
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 14#e070514

** In Turkey, May 16 election may bring Islamist President into power
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 15#e070415

** Human bird flu becomes widespread in Turkey
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 12#e060112

** Bird flu spreads to Europe: Romania and Turkey
** http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi ... 09#e051009

John

I see Turkey devolving ever more towards Islamic governance. I see it causing problems with Israel and NATO. I see it forming an alliance with Iran (which is strange since Turkey is Sunnah and Iran Shia)

I view it as being a leader of the Muslim bloc of countries and given credibility and respect by other countries as well.. which will be unfortunate as I see Reislamized Turkey leading towards the spreading of Jihad and further revival of the Caliphate movement.

I agree; Turkey is setting itself up to be the leader of the Islamic nations. Like in the past, the different sects of Islam will put (for a time at least) their differences behind them and focus on their main goal; the spread of Islam.'

Turkey is in an interesting position. Due to their past close relationship with the west, they have been given access to highly technical military weapons and systems. Even the Israelis have sold them some very advanced weapons systems. Of course, Israel will only sell what they know they have counter measures for, but still, Turkey's is a very advanced nation technologically.

It is likely that when the next major Israeli/Palestinian conflict arises, it will spill over into Syria and Lebanon in a major way. When it does, I see Turkey aligning with Iran and others in an attempt to finally squash the nation of Israel. We live in very interesting times.

thomasglee wrote:I agree; Turkey is setting itself up to be the leader of the Islamic nations. Like in the past, the different sects of Islam will put (for a time at least) their differences behind them and focus on their main goal; the spread of Islam.'

Turkey is in an interesting position. Due to their past close relationship with the west, they have been given access to highly technical military weapons and systems. Even the Israelis have sold them some very advanced weapons systems. Of course, Israel will only sell what they know they have counter measures for, but still, Turkey's is a very advanced nation technologically.

It is likely that when the next major Israeli/Palestinian conflict arises, it will spill over into Syria and Lebanon in a major way. When it does, I see Turkey aligning with Iran and others in an attempt to finally squash the nation of Israel. We live in very interesting times.

I agree with all you've said. Our State Dept is full of stupid people.. every time i see them courting Syria I just get so embarrassed for us.

Turkey tried to be a modern nation for an entire saeculum and Europe was having none of it. Too dark, too Islamic, too alien. Is it any wonder the younger generation is throwing up its hands? And saying "Fine! We tried it Ataturk's way and got spat on. Let's go back to what we really are and stop trying to be Islamic oreos."

The Grey Badger wrote:Turkey tried to be a modern nation for an entire saeculum and Europe was having none of it. Too dark, too Islamic, too alien. Is it any wonder the younger generation is throwing up its hands? And saying "Fine! We tried it Ataturk's way and got spat on. Let's go back to what we really are and stop trying to be Islamic oreos."

Unfortunately, you're correct in my opinion. Turkey tried to be "western", but was rejected by the all inclusive European nations adn that's really left Turkey no choice but to go back to and play in the (no pun intended) sandbox that will accept them.

The Grey Badger wrote:Turkey tried to be a modern nation for an entire saeculum and Europe was having none of it. Too dark, too Islamic, too alien. Is it any wonder the younger generation is throwing up its hands? And saying "Fine! We tried it Ataturk's way and got spat on. Let's go back to what we really are and stop trying to be Islamic oreos."

On the other hand, do you think these people who you think turned to Islam due to rejection by Europe would have been attracted to "European culture" (a broad term if any)?

VinceP1974 wrote:

The Grey Badger wrote:Turkey tried to be a modern nation for an entire saeculum and Europe was having none of it. Too dark, too Islamic, too alien. Is it any wonder the younger generation is throwing up its hands? And saying "Fine! We tried it Ataturk's way and got spat on. Let's go back to what we really are and stop trying to be Islamic oreos."

On the other hand, do you think these people who you think turned to Islam due to rejection by Europe would have been attracted to "European culture" (a broad term if any)?

I know your question was not directed at me, but I'm going to offer up an opinon. I hope you don't mind!

I don't believe we can say we're sure they would have necessarily been attracted to European culture, but I for one do believe that if they had been accepted into the fold, it would have made it easier for their secular government to maintain secular. The Turkish people are very much more liberal than those in most Islamic nations, but by isolating them, we pushed them into embracing their Islamic roots and turning from the west. I'm not saying that integrating with the west would have been the perfect solution, but I do believe that our trying to play both sides did nothing but give an Islamic country, close to Europe, very advanced military technology that is now in the hands of a government that is purely Islamic and does not embrace secularism. The current government leaders appears to be replacing the military leadership with their own and therefore, it won't be long before Turkey has fallen into the hands of Islamic extremists. That does not bode well for Israel, Europe or Eastern Europe - IMHO.

thomasglee wrote:

I know your question was not directed at me, but I'm going to offer up an opinon. I hope you don't mind!

No problem at all. I agree completely with your description of Turkish society, however, I'm pessimistic that Islamic countries are about to resist the current revival in Islam. I think Europe made the right decision in not expanding EU membership to Turkey. No matter how much Turkey was able to be deislamized after WW-I the fact is , that is their culture and heritage.

I can only imagine the consequences of EU membership and the loss of sovereignty that comes with it. including having to abide the EuroLeft's Multicultural Anti-Religious Judicial regime. Inclusion certainly has it alienating risks as well.

In another 50 years, the argument will be moot as EUrabia and Turkey are brothers in the Eastern Hemispheric Calphate.

VinceP1974 wrote:I agree completely with your description of Turkish society, however, I'm pessimistic that Islamic countries are about to resist the current revival in Islam. I think Europe made the right decision in not expanding EU membership to Turkey. No matter how much Turkey was able to be deislamized after WW-I the fact is , that is their culture and heritage.

I can only imagine the consequences of EU membership and the loss of sovereignty that comes with it. including having to abide the EuroLeft's Multicultural Anti-Religious Judicial regime. Inclusion certainly has it alienating risks as well.

In another 50 years, the argument will be moot as EUrabia and Turkey are brothers in the Eastern Hemispheric Calphate.

Overall, you're probably much more correct than I am; I just didn't want to face it.

Regardless of what some will say, this is clearing building up to be a clash of civilizations that will turn into a global crisis even like the world has never seen. To get an idea of what it will be like, just imagine the "Crusades" with nukes!