Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

John wrote:The interesting questions are these:

What methodologies did Bass, Paulson and Burry use to reach their
conclusions?
For Burry, the best answer I can find seems to be these two links, where he describes his method in his own words. I underlined the part below which best describes his method. Somewhere in this interview he mentions that Paulson may have gotten the idea from someone else.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37453934/Mich ... Transcript

This links to a 26 page interview with Michael Burry. This interview may be a year old.
I will try to summarize in no particular order.

The top of the real estate bubble could be timed. We are still in a bubble environment. None of the tops of the future bubbles will be able to be timed - he hasn't figured out how to do it. It was obvious high tech was in a bubble back in the late 1990s but there was no way to tell how long it would go on. He is buying farmland. He won't say how much as a percentage. He is buying gold. He doesn't say how much. He is buying stocks that are overlooked by the market with small high tech companies being an interest, especially in Asia. He talks about Paulson mostly because he's asked a lot of questions about him. He has never talked to Paulson. He has never talked to Buffett. He would not accept a job offer from Buffett because there would be no reason for him to be at Buffett's firm. There's only one Warren Buffett. He says that he doesn't get his ideas from the same sources as the New York hedge funds and the only investment he has in common with Paulson is gold. He is not short anything. The only thing he ever shorted was real estate credit default swaps. He knew the real estate bubble, when it burst, would tip over the stock market too. He gets most of his investing ideas by reading news. It's very difficult to find good investments and it takes a lot of time. He is long term bearish on the dollar and US Treasuries but has no time frame. He started shorting real estate in the Summer of 2005 when as he calls it the penultimate subprime nortgage came into being. He wanted to start a very big fund dedicated to shorting real estate but couldn't get it off the ground. Nobody was interested. Nobody was shorting real estate at the time he was doing it - the securities he bought were offered on the market as protection to investors who were invested in real estate. He's lost faith in our leaders to do the right thing. He doesn't know if there's a bond bubble right now - it can go on awhile, he thinks.

http://news.yahoo.com/weve-become-natio ... 01364.html
QUESTION: Are you a U.S. dollar bear?

BURRY:Long time bearish.I think that I don't have a lot to say in terms of timing. One of the issues -- one of the features of the sub -- the subprime short, the real estate short, is I can put a very specific time on it because I was waiting for the worst possible mortgage, basically, the -- the pay option arm, the cash flow arm, which, in a world where people buy homes because -- on -- on the monthly payment that they need to make, when they don't need to make hardly any payment, that's about as -- as -- the -- the -- the penultimate extension of credit to a homebuyer.

And when I saw those worked through the -- the -- the prime credits and then a little bit into subprime credits, I said, OK, the timer has been set.And I thought 2007, it -- if not before, things are going to come down.

You don't have -- I don't -- I can't find that -- that timer on any of these other theories -- Treasuries, China.I mean there's all these theories.I think we've become a nation of -- of -- of bubbleheads where we've just had this huge bubble burst and now everybody has got their ideas on what the next bubble is and what's going to blow up next.

And that's not hard to do. It's not hard to say there's going to be a -- there's a bubble and this and that. The tough part is when -- when will it come blow -- come down? And with -- with mortgages, I could do that. With housing, I could do that. I think it's more difficult to time that out with some of these other things -- China and Treasuries, that sort of thing.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Higgenbotham wrote:He is long term bearish on the dollar and US Treasuries but has no time frame.
In the dot-com bubble the P/E ratios on the Nasdaq got crazy high. In the Realestate bubble the monthly payments on a mortgage after interest rate resets relative to potential rental value got crazy high. In hind sight we can all now see that these rules work to warn of danger. So how do you tell when the dollar and Treasuries are too high?

First, in the 1920s there was a bond bubble, a real estate bubble, and a stock bubble, then dollar trouble and crazy bad times. Given that we have had stock bubble and real estate bubble, it sure seems like bond bubble should be next to pop and then the dollar.

The rule for when bond panics and hyperinflation comes is debt over 80% of GNP and deficits over 40% of spending. This means a government is spending nearly twice what they get in taxes.

Also, bond interest rates are the lowest they have been since leaving the gold standard, if not longer. These rates are crazy low which drives up bond prices crazy high. Bernanke has pumped trillions into the bond market, which in the future looking back after it pops, will obviously be a bubble.
jdcpapa
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Re: Financial topics

Post by jdcpapa »

Higgenbotham wrote:
jdcpapa wrote:
Good morning Higgy,

I prefer to remain on point: Bass's predictions do not make him a no nonsense guru. He may be seasoned or partner with those that are seasoned. A person seasoned in finance may or may not be an investor. So there is a least one other category out there. The real estate bubble popped at different times in different locations. For example in my location it peaked about 2008. I believe the official year was 2006. My point is that someone seasoned in finance (regardless of their investment agenda) could have read the proverbial tea leaves and predicted the bubble. No doubt, our perspectives of the definition of "seasoned in finance" and perhaps "influence" are different.

Respectfully,

John
OK, let me try again to spell out the point clearly and exactly.

Bass is not a guru......
Let me respond clearly and exactly.

I prefer to remain on point: Bass's predictions do not make him a no nonsense guru. Thank you.
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Dear Higgie,
Higgenbotham wrote: > For Burry, the best answer I can find seems to be these two links,
> where he describes his method in his own words. I underlined the
> part below which best describes his method. Somewhere in this
> interview he mentions that Paulson may have gotten the idea from
> someone else.
Let me make a contrast here. As I've said a hundred times, my
methodology for determining a bubble is to take the long-term trend
graph and apply the Law of Mean Reversion. I've illustrated this with
such things as P/E ratios, DJIA, real estate and gold. Anybody who's
studied a year or two of calculus can understand and verify what I did
and can apply the same methodology to other data series.

But I don't see anywhere close to that level of clarity with Burry.
He says that he watched some things, then said, "OK, the timer has
been set," and then he made some bets. But this is all retrospective,
and it provides no guidance for how to do the same thing in the
future.

The hypothesis is that Bass, Paulson and Burry were simply lucky.
There were thousands of people trying to make money in the real estate
market, and some of them were bound to do well just as a matter of
luck, and those three were the lucky ones. Once they lucked out, then
they made up some facts to explain their success besides luck. That's
the hypothesis.

Does anyone have any evidence that this hypothesis is wrong?

John
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

vincecate wrote:Bernanke has pumped trillions into the bond market, which in the future looking back after it pops, will obviously be a bubble.
I read all 26 pages of that interview with Burry very carefully. He's obviously a smart guy and an experienced investor.

Two things I would say though.

First, if he gets most of his ideas from reading news, then he can't have the full view. He's not spending his time doing the hard slogging we (and many others) are doing. That's not to say he isn't good. Anyone who can make money by reading news is good but you can't find the top of a bond bubble that way, I don't think. He doesn't need to though.

Second, when he said that he thought the real estate bubble would pop because of the pay option ARM, I hate to say it, but he doesn't know the whole story. That wasn't the worst thing that happened. I haven't googled for the term "ghost note" yet, but I saw that and it was worse. That's when I knew or thought I knew that the bubble had reached its zenith.
John wrote:Dear Higgie,

The hypothesis is that Bass, Paulson and Burry were simply lucky.

Does anyone have any evidence that this hypothesis is wrong?

John
I agree and have no evidence the hypothesis is wrong. There may be some skill that gives them a slight edge but I doubt it's more than a few percent per year over a long time horizon.

PS I googled for the term "ghost note" and didn't find anything relevant. That makes me believe that only the insiders in the real estate industry knew what was really going on.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Trevor
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:43 am

Re: Financial topics

Post by Trevor »

A question: where do you find the information on bond yields that you post on this website?
aedens
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by aedens »

http://www.mises.ca/posts/blog/extreme- ... a-problem/

Some of our thought's have been picked up as we pick up others.
Back in the forums we noted by specific the linear nature of connected interests
for simplicity I will enumerate as a>b>c>a and the interpolated nature of the
horizontal stuctures. Some on this board have and do remember the nature
of political landscapes of, and to the calculation when we worked in the verticle structures
and the proceses entailed and the people who of tuition solve todays issues, as we say
pocesses the bent of mind to the sociopolitcal adherances. John makes a valid point on the
revision to the means and the lets say mental calculus we decide also.
It is a complex frabic to derive and form ante interpetations
from two significant organazational structures and the support mechanisms
inclined to supply chain management. I for myself will spend time carefully
to measure nonclemature systems to derive the preservation of capital since
the point is some things just have to work. As many here understand the
overarching trend will be integration by substitution to products which I can
assure you are under way. I have recieved some guidance Correspondence to reports
which we all regard as the sign of the times around here. I will digress to say
as for me I have a less than 10 percent in Corp bonds and treasury notes.
This is in mind to myself and Higgs spring call which we conveyed we wish to wrong.
As for myself analyst are salt, and easly discarded when they loose savor and the
bottum line also they do not make decisions for me anyway. They cannot represent
time which lifts the veil to reason.
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jdcpapa
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by jdcpapa »

John wrote:Dear Higgie,
Higgenbotham wrote: > For Burry, the best answer I can find seems to be these two links,
> where he describes his method in his own words. I underlined the
> part below which best describes his method. Somewhere in this
> interview he mentions that Paulson may have gotten the idea from
> someone else.
Let me make a contrast here. As I've said a hundred times, my
methodology for determining a bubble is to take the long-term trend
graph and apply the Law of Mean Reversion. I've illustrated this with
such things as P/E ratios, DJIA, real estate and gold. Anybody who's
studied a year or two of calculus can understand and verify what I did
and can apply the same methodology to other data series.

But I don't see anywhere close to that level of clarity with Burry.
He says that he watched some things, then said, "OK, the timer has
been set," and then he made some bets. But this is all retrospective,
and it provides no guidance for how to do the same thing in the
future.

The hypothesis is that Bass, Paulson and Burry were simply lucky.
There were thousands of people trying to make money in the real estate
market, and some of them were bound to do well just as a matter of
luck, and those three were the lucky ones. Once they lucked out, then
they made up some facts to explain their success besides luck. That's
the hypothesis.

Does anyone have any evidence that this hypothesis is wrong?

John

Good mornning John,

I have not read Burry but trust Higgy's summary. I watched the Bass video. I know nothing of Paulson. I do not believe it was luck.

In 2001 I began to notice an "unxplained" uptick in the real estate market and a buying frenzy. I was going through a career change and had intended to buy distressed property and fix them up for resale. I had been watching the market at the local level for years. In fact I purchased a property in 1997 and prices were flat. There had been blips in the past but they had a rationale explanation. For example: When hurricane Andrew blew through here an entire county was moved and prices spiked. But for the most part real estate was dead otherwise.

I concluded sometime at the end of 2001 or the beginning of 2002 that there was to much risk of capital. Prices were going up in a frenzy. Had I known I could bet against the market, I would have! My reasoning for all of this went to the rapid increase in price and the frenzied atmosphere. I mean I would go to an area look around pick out a few houses study them and call to discuss an offer and the next thing I know the price went up 10% because of bidding wars. I had also determined that if I did get caught in a decline I would not get a reasonble return on rents. In addition stats on housing affordability as to wages etc., were painting a negative outlook.

Sorry kinda plain and little time to proof. I would like to close by saying I do not think we are in a bond bubble. I want to say my evidence in part, is the fact that the 10 year yield on treasuries is running under inflation. But I really need to check my notes.

Regards,

John
aedens
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by aedens »

Trevor wrote:A question: where do you find the information on bond yields that you post on this website?
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... IntExt=INT

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates- ... -bonds/us/

Depends on risk trev
John
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Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Contact:

Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Trevor wrote: > A question: where do you find the information on bond yields that
> you post on this website?
The graphs that I post are from Bloomberg, with text added.

Here's a list of the URLs for the graphs I've used in the last few
months:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GBTPGR10:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GBGB10YR:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GBTPGR2:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GBTPGR2:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GDBR10:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GGGB10YR:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GGGB2YR:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GIGB10YR:IND
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GSPT2YR:IND

You can get to one of these by googling something like the words
"Bloomberg Italian 10 year" (without the quotes)

John
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