Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
Reality Check
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

aedens wrote: The sheep will eaten since they are owned by wolves who eat them at there leisure.
"Guns Germs and Steel Chapter 14: From Egalitarianism to Kleptocracy"

I have always been partial to Jared Diamond's description of all modern governments as kleptocracies.

The elites steal from the country as their reward for doing a good job keeping the people safe.

The people tolerate the thieves as long as they are safe.

Even that is a form of morality.

But the Generation Xers who are running this country reject that form of morality along with the others.

They are going after the entire herd, not just an occasional straggler.
Last edited by Reality Check on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
aedens
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by aedens »

http://www.macomb-mi.gov/HR/HR%20Contra ... eement.pdf

page 8 section 8

If your house is on fire and the response time is 18 minutes will 9 more make a difference.
Welcome to local politics as the State took over 70k of capital since you know who is incompetent.
We left the numbers on this in the forums. You decide, since Washington dumped tens of thousands on us
in metro. Now we have to sacrifice locally and the Fed will spend your money since debt is weapon to
make the State comply. Washington could being pushed into the ocean would do us favor?
Look they do this for a reason. And it is not about us. Now some of of seen this coming
and they seized power from bloc voting. Now they cannot pay for it so guess what. You do
and the republicans tried to emulate this but the debacle on wall street seen to that point.
It is not even hard to define who did, and did not benefit as H pointed out on how they are
when they feel the pinch to be responsible citizens. The Democrats own this all now but in all
honest regard health care was gone decades ago anyway. They have years in a head start on who
to short and Mises gives a laser point description on the rings we mentioned and the consequences
unleashed. The monetarist call it creative destruction to be polite.
Last edited by aedens on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
gerald
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Re: Financial topics

Post by gerald »

Reality Check wrote:The real sweat part of all this, is that Federal Law views all stock brokers, all insurance companies, all banks and all financial institutions regulated by the federal government as so trustworthy that no bond against illegal activity or incompetence is required if they act as trustee for a retirement account. A retirement account that most likely enjoys no federal government account insurance such as FDIC insurance on demand deposits in banks.

By contrast. any business or private party other than one of those government regulated "financial institutions" must be heavily bonded to act as a retirement trustee.

At the same time these trustworthy financial institutions are being commanded by the federal government to produce their own confidential pre-packaged bankruptcy plans.

There is vastly more money in retirement accounts in the U.S. than demand deposit accounts.

The sheep are being herded into the slaughter pens.
Yes and during a "cash crises" the Federal government could say -- In order to preserve pension assets all pensions will be converted to a government plan or bonds --- like Argentina.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/am ... Whos_next/
aedens
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by aedens »

I have my wife reading Mr. Diamond also. When that is done I will move Her to another level of discussion. She is very bright and also very busy so some issues allude her. My point being she can hold water when topical discussions drift. She works local issues and in the liberal arena has been able to dispel unfounded thoughts of well they just can take more. Take more from whom since another just moved from the circle of there community activities for economic reasons. GD and GGS are viable facts to dispel misnomers in local affairs. Plagues and Peoples is a book on epidemiological history by William Hardy McNeill published in New York City in 1976. This was my base account in 1981 why the health system would fail or falter to extremes in the states we all seen anyway. To be blunt riders should not be even a question anymore. You pay since you cannot deny lifestyle was you running with a fork in your mouth on may topics. The moral implications are you piss in our well and expect us to draw from it since the affront is plain.

http://www.chrishayes.org/articles/The- ... overnment/ What they can fix in the Office to what the Letter is I believe in.

If someone told you years in advance that city will cease to exist can you blame it on a blind watch maker?

http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/cent ... _sc_03.htm
Last edited by aedens on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Higgenbotham
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:28 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

From the news forum November 2010:

"I'm reading this morning about more speculation that the US government intends to take control of the $6 trillion or so in 401Ks and IRAs and force those accounts to be invested in US Treasuries. I know that's been rumored for some time. The recent hearings conducted in September were called "Lifetime Options for Retirement Plans". Apparently, it's now being presented as an annuity option. Somewhere I remember reading that the bonds will have a special name and pay 3% interest."

http://generationaldynamics.com/forum/v ... 0ec1#p7047

Looking at the activity in the US Treasury market since this was noted, it seems reasonable to conclude that certain somebodies have assurances that the Treasury market is going to be backed up.

Gold was scarce dollar backing in 1933 whereas Treasuries are plentiful dollar backing at present. In 1933, gold was seized from citizens because it was scarce. At present, it seems likely that, since Treasuries are plentiful, the action will be to force citizens to buy.
Last edited by Higgenbotham on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
aedens
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:13 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by aedens »

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-0 ... ong-way-go

But he will show himself against the money-loving, selfish traders, whose hearts, like those of Tyre, are hardened by the love of riches. Men have little cause to glory in things which stir up the envy and rapacity of others, and which are continually shifting from one to another; and in getting, keeping, and spending which, men provoke that God whose wrath turns joyous cities into ruinous heaps.

I was reading Newton on definitions since he noted as many the encyclical nature of decisions of the wolves.
Stunning commentary to his day and observations of the tip of the spear in action.
I liked his observation on the LXX and clarifing confirmation bias we would note today as pericopic nuances.
Most conclude today since we have roughly 35 month to the middle east wheels falling off.
Can our observation be wrong, you bet. Have we been rather close lately on some, you bet.... Peace
Reality Check
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Higgenbotham wrote: Gold was scarce dollar backing in 1933 whereas Treasuries are plentiful dollar backing at present. In 1933, gold was seized from citizens because it was scarce. At present, it seems likely that, since Treasuries are plentiful, the action will be to force citizens to buy.
I understand your logic, but you may be missing something. What was removed from U.S. citizens in the 1930s was not the right to hold U.S. paper money, but instead the right to obtain the same benefit from it that non-U.S. citizens had.

Foreign governments in the 1930s could trade in U.S. dollars for gold, making it the strongest currency in the world. U.S. citizens could not. Those U.S. citizens smart enough to invest in gold, or gold certificates, before or during the 1930s, were also denied the right to legally benefit from those investments.

Granted, the U.S.did devalue the U.S. Dollar against gold a matter of months after it became illegal for U.S. citizens to own gold, or turn in their gold certificates for gold or any thing other than fiat money. But that devaluation was minor compared to the middle class and near wealthy that lost near 100% of their investments in an approximately 12 year period.

All that was not the major taking of wealth and power however. The taking of wealth was blamed on private banks and private businesses that either went broke and their stock and deposits became worthless, or were, in the case of many banks, declared worthless by the government and re-opened under new ownership, with the deposits gone.

That is not to say that exactly the same thing will happen again.

But it is a template that the elites controlling government can use to "save the portion of the U.S. government and the portion of the U.S. financial system" that benefits them while shifting blame somewhere else.

You need to think like a power hungry crook with unlimited power within the United States, and then use history in the United States as a guide to the tools you have available to achieve you goals, and who you can pin the blame on.
Reality Check
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Consider the difference in U.S. debt instruments currently held by the public ( both U.S. citizens and non-U.S. citizens alike), and U.S. debt instruments currently held by the Social Security trustee for the benefit of those individuals who live long enough to become eligible for retirement benefits under Social Security.

They are all U.S. Government debt instruments. The difference is that publicly traded U.S. debt instruments can be in traded in secondary public markets in both the United States and Overseas.

Not true with the U.S. debt instruments held by the Social Security trustee. Those U.S. government instruments held by Social Security are not sellable to the public and have zero value in either primary or secondary debt markets. They are only worth what the U.S. government says they are worth when the trustee requests the U.S. Government buy them back. It is a buyers market.

Will the U.S. government declare the Social Security assets worthless, of course not, no way to shift the blame for that. But they have the power to, if they want to. And since Dodd-Frank they have the power to do many other things, where the blame can be shifted.
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

Reality Check wrote:You need to think like a power hungry crook with unlimited power within the United States, and then use history in the United States as a guide to the tools you have available to achieve you goals, and who you can pin the blame on.
I've been pretty consistent over the past 3 years in saying there's a possibility US history can no longer be used as a guide if the "hard road" were to be followed, which it has. The first 2 mentions of that possibility were on August 22, 2009 and June 14, 2010, but at that time I thought it was only a possibility. Since about August of last year, I've changed my view to thinking it's very highly probable.
On August 22, 2009 wrote:However, if it does not, then I believe the dollar will be destroyed and America will collapse in a similar manner to the Roman Empire, 14th Century Europe and the Soviet Union.
On June 14, 2010 wrote:I think it was an important debate two years ago, but since the system was backstopped by government rather than letting deflation take hold, the important debate is whether the entire worldwide financial system will collapse in a heap, similar to the collapses of the Roman Empire or the Middle Ages (the collapse of the Bardi in 1346 three years after the City of Florence backstopped it, which led to the complete collapse and depopulation of Europe). Trouble is, today our delivery systems have no means to facilitate exchange in anything other than electronic currencies and if US government finances suddenly blow up, then how will that be inflation or deflation? What we are more likely looking at here is the end of the Modern world, similar but yet different to how the Ancient and Medieval worlds ended. A prerequisite to that happening is that few can identify the possibility and thus no measures are taken to prevent it.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
Reality Check
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Re: Financial topics

Post by Reality Check »

Higgenbotham wrote: At present, it seems likely that, since Treasuries are plentiful, the action will be to force citizens to buy.
Which brings us back to my original question.

How will this play out ?

Who will take the blame?

One option is that the U.S. Government, and the U.S. Financial system will survive, and even become stronger as it did in the 1930s.

Here is one speculative scenario ( based on the above option ) for consideration:

1. People actually physically holding U.S. dollar bills and physically holding U.S. debt instruments, like Treasuries bills, and physically holding the stock certificates, will have investments which will continue to have some value. Gold and precious metals will also continue to hold some value. Just like they did during the Great Depression.

2. People who allowed the "regulated financial institutions" to hold the physical dollar bills and physical Treasuries and physical stock certificates, will be informed that the federal government has been forced to liquidate some federally regulated financial institutions because "something bad was going on within those private corporations" and, just like MF Global, those federal reserve dollars and those physical Treasuries and physical stock certificates are no longer in the accounts where they are supposed to be. Do not worry, the U.S. government is on it, they will investigate and let you know what happened, just like MF Global. The U.S. government promises to "stand behind" Federally Insured accounts. But not all accounts are insured.

3. Bank runs begin, retirement accounts are not demand deposit accounts and must wait for their money, the Federal Government is required to declare a "bank holiday" affecting all Financial Institutions in the United States as a result of the bank runs.

4. By federal law, virtually all IRAs, all private. and all state and local government pension plans, must keep their assets in regulated financial institutions and neither the non-bank trustees, nor the individual beneficiaries are allowed to hold their own physical dollars or their own physical bond certificates or their own physical stock certificates, without incurring many costs and many inconveniences. Federal law makes it extremely costly, inefficient, and inconvenient for non-bank trustees to physically hold stock certificates, bonds, treasuries, other securities or cash. Federal law also imposes a fiduciary duty on trustees not to run up transaction costs of the type required to physically hold stock certificates and physical certificates of other securities.

5. The U.S. government moves swiftly to save the financial system and re-opens local banks under new ownership. Initial accounts are being automatically opened for every tax payer with a small nominal deposit of new "electronic safe dollars". These accounts are being opened in all of the newly re-opened banks. An account will automatically be opened for each Social Security Number and each Tax Payer Identification number for non-U.S. citizens. These new "electronic safe dollars" must be accepted within the United States for all debts, the U.S. government "stands behind the safe electronic dollars for internal U.S. use". These new "electronic safe dollars" are only good for use in the United States, but not backed up by the Federal Reserve, and not for buying foreign goods.

6. We are all in this together, and those U.S. citizens holding U.S. federal reserve dollars, U.S. Treasuries, Bonds, stock certificates and precious metals will not be allowed to take them out of the country legally. As an emergency measure all U.S. markets that trade in stocks, bonds, U.S. Treasuries and other securities have been closed temporarily until new regulations to keep the U.S. Financial system safe can be imposed.

7. Paper U.S. Dollars are hoarded and are rare. Private businesses are forced to accept the new "safe electronic dollars". There are simply too few U.S. paper dollars in circulation to be used as currency. The only available form of electronic payment is with the new "safe electronic dollars". New "safe electronic dollars" are used to pay employees. The United States based Visa and Master Card networks have been converted to use new "safe electronic dollars" exclusively within the United States.

8. Those individuals with FDIC insured demand accounts willing to voluntarily accept new "safe electronic dollars" receive the insured portion of those accounts back promptly within a few months, less the initial advance of new "safe electronic dollars" they received from the federal government.

9. The Trillions upon Trillions of Wealth that were in those Pension funds and IRA accounts, using investments not insured by the federal government is gone. Exactly what was insured and was not insured will take months, maybe years to sort out.

10. As in the Great Depression the investment counselors, bankers, trustees and money changers take the public blame for this collapse of the debt bubble.

11. The federal government is praised for being prepared and moving forward in just a few months so that people could again buy food and pay rent. First responders and other federal, state and local government employees began receiving pay checks almost immediately using new "safe electronic dollars". Millions more would have died if the federal government had not moved so quickly.

12. Eventually most U.S. paper dollars backed by the Federal Reserve in the United States are exchanged for new "safe electronic dollars". Tax collection in the United States becomes more efficient because all tax payer financial transactions are conducted electronically through a single account with their social security number as their account number. Income taxes can be automatically calculated monthly and deducted from the taxpayers account automatically each month.

13. The U.S. continues to trade overseas using U.S. Federal Reserve dollars and stands behind U.S. Treasuries held overseas with U.S. Federal Reserve dollars. U.S. government debt issued as Bearer Bonds are Still in wide circulation, but for many years only registered U.S. Government debt has been issued. U.S. debt certificates registered in the United States are not honored if smuggled out of the country and sold overseas. More than half the U.S. Debt has been issued in the last 10 years as registered debt and the vast majority of U.S. Debt is held in the United States.

14. By federal law U.S. government debt re-paid to U.S. citizens is paid exclusively in new "safe electronic dollars". Income tax is now collected on all U.S. Government debt payments to U.S. citizens to insure everyone is paying their fair share.

15. Both U.S. paper dollars and U.S. Debt redeemable overseas has become more rare and more valuable. Just like they became more valuable during the Great Depression.

This is just one scenario where the U.S. government, U.S. Federal Reserve Note Currency and the U.S. Federal Reserve Financial system survive the debt bubble collapse.
Last edited by Reality Check on Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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