Generational Dynamics World View News

[Bob Butler]

The major lesson from World War II was containment. Throughout the Industrial Age, it was sort of profitable for autocratic governments to gain wealth, status and power through use of violence. Military cultures saw themselves as superior to soft economic cultures who focused more on economic advantage. The alliances against Napoleon, World War II’s allies, NATO and similar organizations tried to put the breaks on autocratic conquest, as they were designed to do. China is facing a similar alliance regarding their attempts to similarly expand. Nukes, proxy war, insurgent war and sanctions are taking this Age long trend one step further.

Of course, Putin is a slow learner. He sees himself as another Peter the Great rather than another Napoleon or Hitler. The difference is the further back in history you go, the more you tend to win your autocratic conquest. It is natural for a conservative to cling to the old way of things, to try to cling to old patterns and lessons. I don’t particularly see Putin succeeding this time around.

[JDav]

It's only "provocation" if you assume that Russia has some right to determine the political leadership and/or alliances of countries that neighbor it. Since most people reject that assumption, no, there was no provocation. Russia can form alliances with any other country it wants and doing so would not give the US or any other country the right to attack it.

For certain people Russia exists in a special category where it needs to be catered to. I reject that as do most other people in the world.

And you're saying the US has never done that? And doesn't still do that? Why is this particular hill the one you want to die on? Are you as passionate about the Uighers in China (or any other victims of Chinese aggression/oppression)? Or Afghanistan? Or the rampant drug abuse/human trafficking in this country? Why are you only selectively concerned about the evils that occur on a daily basis around the world?

Wars of conquest/self-preservation have been going on since the dawn of time, and will continue until the end of time. Every geographical boundary currently in existence was created that way, so by your logic every nation on earth was founded on evil. So, what difference does it make whether Russia or Ukraine is victorious? God will sort out the good from the evil.

The main thing I get from Ukraine is that a certain president's son, and others in the political/elite class, have made a lot of money there and are trying to protect their investments.

Putin is clearly evil, but there is enough of that to go around, even in the US. Financial policy that benefits and props up the politician's cronies but devastates the average American; immigration policy that encourages human and drug smuggling that destroys individuals and families, while creating a permanent underclass of near-slave labor; Covid policy that was nothing more than a totalitarian power grab (and turns out to be more harmful than helpful to most people); entitlement/social policies designed to decimate black families and enslave the poor, etc., etc., etc. There is a war of conquest going on in this country, too; it's just that the weapons are different.

Questioning US/NATO motives for getting involved in the Russian/Ukrainian conflict does not make one a Russian troll. It does, however, raise philosophical questions that some may find difficult to face. Your answers may differ from mine, or CB's, but they are no less valid.

Before putting words in my mouth maybe you should ask what my views actually are. I do think that China is an evil authoritarian police state that is subjecting Uighers to genocide. I do think that Afghanistan is a shithole that the US spent two decades and billions of dollars trying to improve for no return. I do think that there are numerous criminal groups importing drugs that kill hundreds of thousands of US citizens. I believe that my views are fairly consistent. I also can walk and chew gum at the same time. Not mentioning other topics does not mean anything other that I haven't commented on them. You've engaged in both straw man argument and false dichotomy arguments. Congratulations!

Yes, Biden's deadbeat son made a lot of money in Ukraine. What does that have to do with the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine? Nothing. This falls under Red Herring.

Trying to equate the "evil" of Russia and the US is an appeal to hypocrisy. But there is no comparison between the two. You can argue that the US should not have invaded Iraq ans Afghanistan and I'd likely agree with you. However, the US did not annex any territory from with of them, poured huge amounts of money into them to make them better places and facilitated free elections. Russia has done none of that. The US made deliberate attempts to limit civilian deaths while Russia deliberately targets civilians while also engaging in murder, rape and looting.

You really should lay off the logical fallacies and try again. Maybe try to stay on topic and not try to bring extraneous issues into it. The fact is that Russia has invaded another country with the initial intention of installing a compliant client government. Captured Russian plans verify this. The goal now seems to be to annex areas of Ukraine after conquering them. Look at the actions of the puppets Russia has installed in various captured regions.

My point is that from a spiritual perspective, evil is evil no matter the form. You can argue that the invasion of Ukraine is more evil than what we do within our own borders, but I disagree. Have you ever seen anyone strung out on meth or heroine, that came illegally across the border, or seen someone die from an overdose? I have. Our politicians not only allow a good bit of it to happen, but encourage it through their policies and actions. How is that evil different from what Putin does? I'll tell you how - Putin only kills the body, but we're killing souls.

Jesus' ancestors invaded and conquered the Holy Land. Not only did God condone it, he ordained it. They plundered and raped, and killed everyone and everything. Clearly then, not all wars of conquest are evil. God will judge.

I have ancestors who survived the Trail of Tears. I have some who didn't. Was that not part of a war of conquest, as was the whole creation of the country known as the United States? If you're American, how do you square that with your views on Russia/Ukraine?

I'm only asking - Why is Ukraine so much more worthy of our time, talent, and treasure than other areas of the world, or than our own citizens? I haven't seen you make the case, other than, "but Putin invaded Ukraine." Convince me as to why this is the most important battle of our time, why it's so urgent to save Ukraine while my own country rots from inside.

[Tom Mazanec]

White House Says Iran Supplying "Several Hundred" Armed Drones To Russia
BY TYLER DURDEN
MONDAY, JUL 11, 2022 - 07:40 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... nes-russia

Call Vladimir Putin 'ruler' rather than 'president', say Russian leader's Kremlin allies
Bloomberg News
Mon, July 11, 2022 at 6:11 a.m.·2 min read
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/call- ... 00287.html

Ukraine Latest: Iran Prepares to Send Drones to Russia, US Says
Bloomberg News
Mon, July 11, 2022 at 4:51 p.m.·6 min read
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/ukrai ... 30384.html

[Tom Mazanec]

JDav:
America's treatment of First Nations was WRONG. But that is whataboutism. Ukraine is important for the same reason Czechoslovakia was important in 1938. We did not react then, and we got Poland in 1939. Putin wants everything that was once part of Russia's Empire back under his control? Does that include Alaska?

[JDav]

JDav:
America's treatment of First Nations was WRONG. But that is whataboutism. Ukraine is important for the same reason Czechoslovakia was important in 1938. We did not react then, and we got Poland in 1939. Putin wants everything that was once part of Russia's Empire back under his control? Does that include Alaska?

As I get older I'm developing a more fatalistic approach to everything. What happens will happen, according to God's will, and in reality I have zero power to do anything but accept it, even if I don't understand it. God can take the greatest of evils and turn it into something good, as he did 2000 years ago. He will do the same here...

I guess that's the short version of everything I've been trying to say. I see evil everywhere and it's all of a piece to me. It all comes from the same place.

Fighting the evil will beget more evil. Not fighting it will beget more evil. it's a Catch-22

[JDav]

JDav:
America's treatment of First Nations was WRONG. But that is whataboutism. Ukraine is important for the same reason Czechoslovakia was important in 1938. We did not react then, and we got Poland in 1939. Putin wants everything that was once part of Russia's Empire back under his control? Does that include Alaska?

Putin wants Russia's Empire back under his control, so he kills, rapes, and annexes land. The young US government wanted to expand its borders, not reclaim them, so it killed, raped, and annexed land, as brutally as Putin is doing now. It's not whataboutism. I just don't understand why one is right and acceptable and one is wrong, or is it just that time has passed and the victors write the history? If Russia succeeds and a hundred years go by will what they did today be acceptable? On a spiritual level I can see (but not understand) that it's according to God's plan, but can someone explain it to me on a human level?

[Another guest]

The major lesson from World War II was containment. Throughout the Industrial Age, it was sort of profitable for autocratic governments to gain wealth, status and power through use of violence. Military cultures saw themselves as superior to soft economic cultures who focused more on economic advantage. The alliances against Napoleon, World War II’s allies, NATO and similar organizations tried to put the breaks on autocratic conquest, as they were designed to do. China is facing a similar alliance regarding their attempts to similarly expand. Nukes, proxy war, insurgent war and sanctions are taking this Age long trend one step further.

Of course, Putin is a slow learner. He sees himself as another Peter the Great rather than another Napoleon or Hitler. The difference is the further back in history you go, the more you tend to win your autocratic conquest. It is natural for a conservative to cling to the old way of things, to try to cling to old patterns and lessons. I don’t particularly see Putin succeeding this time around.

Bob. I actually agree with you.

Now let me check to see if Hell has frozen over...

[Bob Butler]

Bob. I actually agree with you.

Now let me check to see if Hell has frozen over...

Has Hell frozen over? https://www.albany.edu/faculty/miesing/ ... /hell.html

More seriously, the crisis seems to be fully taking shape and the long term need to make over America every four score and seven years seems to be clarifying. The Big Lie is getting harder to cling to. Containment seems to be overcoming conquest. The Supreme Court is trying to support the older values in the face of the will of the people, which seems apt to not work in the long term.

I’m feeling a bit less in need to express the obvious, more content to wait out the crisis. I do see a need to advance the culture periodically. I do see some progressive goals being met. Perhaps not all.

[Tom Mazanec]

JDav:
What do you mean one is right and one is wrong. American treatment of First Nations was WRONG. If Putin prevails what he is doing will be wrong till the last syllable of recorded time.

[JDav]

JDav:
What do you mean one is right and one is wrong. American treatment of First Nations was WRONG. If Putin prevails what he is doing will be wrong till the last syllable of recorded time.

You are correct - both are wrong, equally wrong. You can’t argue that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is evil and the white man’s conquest of America was not. But what recourse do the Indians have now? Are we willing to return our lands to them?

We are all selectively blind to the evils of the world. I include myself in that statement. Clearly Putin is acting with evil intent. But why are we making a stand in Ukraine, when we did nothing in Rwanda, Burma, or anywhere else? It’s very noble for you and I (and Xeraphim) to demand that we do something, but believe me - the idea that the Ukrainian people are being raped and murdered is very low on the priority list of the people who are deciding to involve us in the conflict. They’ll use that to gin up our support, but they’ve demonstrated time and again that human life is expendable when it comes to achieving their goals, or when it doesn't further their goals.

Money and power are always their primary goals, but it’s been obvious for the last year and a half that the specific goal of those currently in power is the destruction of the US and comeuppance of the American people, so forgive me for questioning their motives in Ukraine. When our government is demonstrably evil in one area, I have a hard time believing it to be virtuous in another.

Our government has also shown a notable lack of concern about national security, so the idea that they are trying to avert WW3 rings hollow, too. Why Ukraine? Why now? Why is the left so hawkish all of a sudden? That’s what first got my attention. How did the most corrupt man in the world (Zelensky) become Churchill incarnate? I tell you, there’s something fishy going on, and I want no part of it.