Abortion

[Bob Butler]

Prove that a fetus is not sapient. Obviously you don't care about humanity.
And as for religious, I gave you a link with five arguments OUTSIDE of religion against abortion.

Now you want me to prove a negative? It is the positive proposition that is usually to be proven, and for good reason.

And I countered all five arguments.

Another wrinkle, a sapient alien or a sapient computer is quite possible. A definition of sapient based on 'has human genes' is therefore not satisfactory. Define a property of a fetus that is measurable but does not include 'has human genes'.

I wouldn't mind if you spoke on conservative groups trying to control other groups generally get in trouble in a crisis.

[Guest]

I am seeing the opposite. People are moving from religious to secular perspectives. The religious inflexibility which John’s mother represents is becoming less popular. In issues like prejudice, conquest and abortion, the controlling other’s culture positions are not new, the equality and freedom positions more popular. You don't try to impose your culture on others. This is not really moral relativism. You help the victims of these policies. In terms of demographics, the secular positions look to have the edge.

The migrants pouring into Europe are not pro-LGBT. Gays will be thrown from rooftops, at the very least attacked in public. Women will be put in their place. The rape wave has taught the leftists nothing.

This is a stronger trend in the West than among Muslims, at least in this crisis.

I have had no real opinion of Pope Francis, but it seems he is more for being right on ethics than consistent with age old positions. This may turn some people off, but I sympathize with both sides. The people are moving. If the Church is going to survive, he has to move with them.

His church is wishy washy.

What I meant was that the people who remain religious will be the ones in more conservative groups, not the wishy washy ones.

People need the spiritual. Now wokeism is a new kind of deranged religion. Isis was able to tap into he shallowness of post-Christian Europe and recruit hundreds, perhaps thousands of secular Europeans of Christian background into their army.

I can agree the people who remain religious will be more conservative.

I will disagree that people need the spiritual. The world is becoming more secular. Those who do not need religion are numerous and content. If you do not recognize the world as shifting, you certainly won’t be with Pope Francis. See him as moving to keep up with a changing base.

Is the secular / democratic position wishy washy? Are BLM, the Ukrainians and pro choice people wishy washy? You might wish it so, but they are on top of this crisis.

BLM is part of the racist and hypocritical insanity sweeping the West. It is a new religion, like ISIS. Like the poster said, people need the spiritual...

I am coming to believe the issues of this and prior American crises have featured one conservative group trying to control another culture. The white supremacists try to maintain dominance over the blacks, the Russians over the Ukrainians, the religious fanatics over women. I go into more depth on this on my own thread. This is wider than the abortion question, but people don’t like it when another bunch of people tries to control them. In recent crises, those being controlled are not wishy washy about it, but come out ahead. I could see it going the same way this time.

Woke rubbish.

ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) is not the bulk of the Muslims who moved to the west. Those that moved were those most sympathetic with western values. Those that remained were more in tune with the middle eastern autocratic culture. We have to be careful to maintain the western ideal of religious freedom. We have to allow them to practice their religion as they wish. Still, it is an instinct to try to control those who are different. We have to recognize it an suppress it.

Debatable. The average Muslim in Europe chooses to ghettoize. I see that in France and Germany. You really don't know what you are talking about.

[Tom Mazanec]

BB, the growth of a human from zygote to maturity is a continuous, not discrete, process. You are almost identical day to day, but much different decade to decade. A zygote is pre-sapient (on a timescale of years) just as you are repeatedly pre-sapient (on a timescale of hours) each night.

[Guest]

Sunday, February 5th, 2023.

well, this is interesting. Pope Francis has just declared that homosexuality is not a sin. My mother would be very contemptuous of this decision by the Catholic Church. I wonder if it's still a sin to use contraceptives?

A scathing article on the liberal favorite Pope Francis.

https://unherd.com/2023/02/inside-the-c ... civil-war/

My late father came from a wealthy, prominent, and influential Catholic family, but he quit the Church in the early 1960s. I never was curious enough to ask him why. Now, I guess I have my answer. Glad I wasn't raised Catholic..

What makes Müller’s interview so deadly for Francis, however, is that it is the first time that a cardinal has drawn attention to the Pope’s favouritism towards clergy who have been accused of sex abuse. Müller mentions the “special status” given to Bishop Gustavo Zanchetta, an Argentinian protégé of Francis whom he made a bishop as soon he became pope. In 2017, Zanchetta had to resign from his diocese of Orán amid allegations of abusing seminarians and financial mismanagement. Francis promptly created a job for Zanchetta in the Vatican overseeing the Holy See’s property and financial assets. This jaw-dropping appointment came to an end, however, when Zanchetta was jailed in Argentina for abusing two seminarians — despite the Vatican’s mysterious refusal to supply the courts with its own investigations into the charges.

This was at least the third time Francis had stuck his neck out — and risked his reputation — to defend a Latin American ally either plausibly accused or convicted of sexual abuse. Now there are questions about what the Pope knew about another of his clergy friends — his fellow Jesuit Fr Marko Rupnik, a celebrity artist whose tacky mosaics adorn churches all over the world and in the Vatican. The Rupnik scandal beggars belief.

[guest]

From the above news article:

And here we encounter the infuriating reluctance of accredited Vatican correspondents to subject the ruler of Western Europe’s most corrupt independent state to the scrutiny that any president or prime minister would receive.

[Tom Mazanec]

I saw nothing about Pope Francis saying homosexuality is not a sin (except from you, John). I saw him say certain measures taken against homosexuals are sinful, which is very different.
I am disgusted by what is going on with the sex abuse scandal, but also by much of Church History. Jesus foretold scandals would plague His Church, but woe to those through whom they came.

[Bob Butler]

Guest

BLM is not a religion. There is no supernatural force to worship. It is a effort of one group to escape the control of another group, like Ukraine, like the pro life women, like the Muslim migrants to Europe, like stopping the fascist invasions, like stopping the slaveholders, like achieving independence from Britain.

Every group has its criminals. Every group moving into a land controlled by another culture needs time to absorb the culture of the people around them. This includes tolerance. The answer is not less tolerance.

The tendency of conservative groups to wish to control, oppress, invade, lynch or otherwise harass people different from them is real. The instinct of humans to do this is at the core of Generational Dynamics. Stopping this behavior is non trivial and definitely not rubbish.

[Bob Butler]

BB, the growth of a human from zygote to maturity is a continuous, not discrete, process. You are almost identical day to day, but much different decade to decade. A zygote is pre-sapient (on a timescale of years) just as you are repeatedly pre-sapient (on a timescale of hours) each night.

Murdering someone in their sleep and using a legal defense that he was sleeping and thus not sapient would get one approximately nowhere. Thus, I reject any inference you might take from sleep.

Pre sapient indicates not sapient.

[Hshsg]

I saw nothing about Pope Francis saying homosexuality is not a sin (except from you, John). I saw him say certain measures taken against homosexuals are sinful, which is very different.
I am disgusted by what is going on with the sex abuse scandal, but also by much of Church History. Jesus foretold scandals would plague His Church, but woe to those through whom they came.

You should read the article someone posted in the thread. It talks about just that.

[Tom Mazanec]

BB, a person in deep sleep or surgical anesthesia is not sapient either, by your definition of sapient.