Financial topics

Investments, gold, currencies, surviving after a financial meltdown
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

John wrote: What this graph says to me is that gold is in a huge bubble, and that its price is going to fall well below $400 per ounce, by the Law of Mean Reversion.
I don't think gold will ever go back below $1000/oz and yet you provide good evidence that gold will go back to $400 in 2010 dollars and I believe it. This may seem like a contradiction, but the solution is simple. The CPI will adjust big time. In 2015 gold may be $3000/oz and yet only $400/oz in 2010 dollars.

An improper use use of the Law of Mean Reversion would say that since gold was $20/oz for 200 years it must go well below $20/oz for many years to compensate for the $1430 price today. This logic fails. Gold is not going back below $20/oz.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

John wrote: By the way, I often like to point out that I'm not invested in anything, and I'm not selling anything, so I have nothing on the line except my own credibility.
John, you must be invested in something. Even if it is just your house and a IRA, you must have something.
John wrote: even though interest rates have been close to zero for years, and the Fed has been flooding the market with QE. By any reasonable yardstick, the inflationary case has already been disproven.
There is always a delay from when they print money to when it shows up as inflation. Studies and theory confirm this. For a country that has not had inflation recently to have a delay of 3 years from when the new money was put in till when it shows up in CPI is not unusual.

When money is first added it lowers interest rates, which lowers the velocity of money, which compensates for the increased quantity of money. After awhile interest rates go back up and the velocity of money goes back up, and prices go up. But this can take years.

Commodities are already showing and they are usually the first to show.

http://pair.offshore.ai/38yearcycle/#delay

John, you were calling for CPI deflation like in the Great depression. This was like a 40% drop in prices over a 3 year period, then they went off the gold standard. We are coming up on 3 years and yet no sign of such huge deflation, except in houses. When will you admit that your 40% drop in prices has been disproven?
John wrote: Now, having been disproved, the "inflationists" have switched to a new argument -- that a US government default would provoke more QE that would cause hyperinflation.
I am not expecting the government to default. Some may talk of it, and that may scare people out of bonds, which would help start hyperinflation. But I really can not find any example of a government that can print money default on debt in the currency they can print.
John wrote: As far as I'm concerned, the "inflationist" view is part of the same fabric of denial, self-denial, and deception that's causing the stock market bubble.
For the record, I have puts on the S&P. My logic is that when interest rates go up then P/E ratios go down. So the first impact of inflation will be to hurt the market. Eventually inflation will drive up stocks, but only after P/E is way down.
Last edited by vincecate on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SovietofWashington
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Re: Financial topics

Post by SovietofWashington »

But it does appear that Mish is coming around (for non-Generational Dynamics reasons) to John's position on Malthusian population overshoot and the potential for a Crisis of Civilization war. http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... -peak.html. See the bottom letter from BC and Mish's follow on comments.
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

From the standpoint of whether current market action is indicating inflation or deflation, signals are mixed.

The first and in my opinion most important signal would be the behavior of the dollar. As I had indicated to Vince at one time, when stocks are sold off, the settlements are automatically made in US dollars and therefore the dollar will rise. Lately, that has not been happening. Even as the stock market has peaked out and been sold down, the dollar has made new lows. This is inflationary behavior. In fact, the dollar typically bottoms and rises about 2% before the stock market tops. This happened in November before Bernanke started QE.

The second signal would be the behavior of the bond market. If the bond market were seeing inflation, interest rates would have been rising into the stock market high of February 18. Instead, interest rates made a lower high and then began to fall before the stock market peaked out. This is deflationary behavior. For those who want to know more, David Rosenburg explains this concept correctly (in my opinion) in a Bloomberg interview archived on their web site.

The third signal would be the behavior of gold and silver and their ratio. Gold and silver have been rising strongly, with silver rising more strongly. When silver is stronger, that signals an inflationary backdrop. The same thing happened in 1980. When gold is stronger, that signals deflation. Gold can still rise in a deflationary environment.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
OLD1953
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Re: Financial topics

Post by OLD1953 »

All true, but we have to keep in mind that there is often (always?) a brief uptick before the end of a cycle. Even in rowing a boat across a river, you row against the current, then back, then against the current again, and wind up drifting down as you pull to shore, making an S curve with an uptick on the end before it drops back. I think this may be related to the fractal nature of the real world, as we can't actually have the mathematically smooth curves and straight lines we use in physics and geometry to represent a simplified version of a "perfect" reality. It seems to me that experience shows complex systems never reach a balance, they always overshoot and correct in an endless dance.

Right now, consumer spending is up, but slowing again, even though jobs are in the pits. Moreover, consumer confidence is dropping. What does that tell you? It says people are spending more on necessities (as if I didn't know) and borrowing on credit cards (up) to pay for them. Overall consumer debt is down, but that includes more than credit cards. Shortages in food and high prices for gas coupled with millions fewer active workers mean people are desparate to get to work and feed families. Given the pressure against wage increases, I'd say we are looking at the final countdown as people pay off other debt and run up the credit cards - presuming that trend continues.
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

OLD1953 wrote:All true, but we have to keep in mind that there is often (always?) a brief uptick before the end of a cycle.
As far as where the markets will go from here, my first thought would be that the leadup to a financial crisis and panic is a period of increasing disorder. The panic reaction is a time of maximum disorder from which order is then restored as the system is reconfigured into a different state. The degree of panic probably somehow correlates with the degree of disorder in the system, which seems very high at present. In order for there to be a panic, there must be an orderly state to move to. So, for example, if the dollar is stable and the rules of the game are understood, the markets can easily move to dollars to achieve an orderly state.

Once panic was brought into being with the Lehman collapse, the financial system was in the process of reconfiguring when Bernanke blocked that process by successfully turning the dollar into a junk currency (by transmitting theoretically infinite amounts of currency to favored speculators and onto corporate balance sheets). One way to allow the natural generational process to continue would be a political move to stop this process. That would probably result in a more subdued deflationary panic.

I see the financial markets as being in a state where they desperately want to restore order right now. Prices of assets are much too high - no young person on an average wage can get credit or afford to buy a typical house at today's prices. At the same time, prices of essentials are also much too high and prevent any accumulation of savings.

A second way to allow the natural generational process to continue would be a panic so severe that it overcomes the opposing force of money creation (with its associated leveraging of QE dollars to many fold their base level of issuance). This could be something like the flash crash times 5.

It seems theoretically possible that the market will see that panic won't accomplish anything because there is nothing to panic INTO that will create the needed adjustment. Still, the markets want to panic and that can be readily seen from observation. Every day that stocks get hit, gold and silver are up a lot while the dollar sinks to new lows. However, there's not enough gold and silver in the world to absorb all the selling and nobody currrently wants junk dollars because the trust in the dollar has been compromised (the rules of the game aren't understood).

China has just announced this week that all cross border transactions (goods moving in and out of China) will no longer be priced in dollars starting sometime this year. In the meantime, Bernanke babbles complete nonsense in front of Congress and gold ratchets ever higher.

If the generational processes continue to be held off, my guess would be that sometime in the next few months, it will be possible to wake up one morning and see the dollar down 10, 20 or even 30 percent in overnight (Asian) markets. The chance of this happening is much higher than it was two or three years ago and seems to be increasing. That would be sufficient to set off a panic but in that case it will probably be very long lasting and unpredictable, and there may be no way to create an orderly system out of it for decades or longer.
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
thomasglee
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Re: Financial topics

Post by thomasglee »

Higgenbotham wrote:If the generational processes continue to be held off, my guess would be that sometime in the next few months, it will be possible to wake up one morning and see the dollar down 10, 20 or even 30 percent in overnight (Asian) markets. The chance of this happening is much higher than it was two or three years ago and seems to be increasing. That would be sufficient to set off a panic but in that case it will probably be very long lasting and unpredictable, and there may be no way to create an orderly system out of it for decades or longer.
So I'm guessing I should convert my $$ account in Korea to a Korean WON account.... :-)
Psalm 34:4 - “I sought the Lord, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears.”
Higgenbotham
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Re: Financial topics

Post by Higgenbotham »

thomasglee wrote:
Higgenbotham wrote:If the generational processes continue to be held off, my guess would be that sometime in the next few months, it will be possible to wake up one morning and see the dollar down 10, 20 or even 30 percent in overnight (Asian) markets. The chance of this happening is much higher than it was two or three years ago and seems to be increasing. That would be sufficient to set off a panic but in that case it will probably be very long lasting and unpredictable, and there may be no way to create an orderly system out of it for decades or longer.
So I'm guessing I should convert my $$ account in Korea to a Korean WON account.... :-)
I'm not really saying that. What I'm saying is (in my opinion anyway) the financial system has become more chaotic and unpredictable due to the fact that the US authorities are making up the rules as they go along and normal generational behavior doesn't seem to be taking place. Generational Dynamics says that in the time period we are in, deflation would be expected with high certainty. I first posted about what that should look like with respect to the dollar, the bond market and the precious metals. In my view, there's no conclusion at present because signals are very mixed. I then took some guesses as to the wide range of outcomes that might be expected given the chaos that is occurring. Since there's no large safe haven sink, there can't be a predictable money flow until one is established. The market could establish the dollar as the safe haven by default anyway by making an extremely severe panic reaction which overcomes the barriers that have been established. It hasn't even begun doing so, though, even though some signs of panic are evident (like stocks being sold off hard here and there).
While the periphery breaks down rather slowly at first, the capital cities of the hegemon should collapse suddenly and violently.
vincecate
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Re: Financial topics

Post by vincecate »

Higgenbotham wrote:Since there's no large safe haven sink, there can't be a predictable money flow until one is established.
Commodities, gold, and silver are looking rather large and safe. I think they will look more and more so. Nothing so safe as cases of tuna. Or you can go to beprepared.com and click on "year supply and combos". SLV up 3.82% today. Bonds down and dollar also, multiply those together for total loss.

This experiment has been done many times before. Things are unfolding the way they should when the central bank is printing money really fast. Commodities, gold and silver are good. Eventually interest rates go up and bonds, stocks, real estate are bad.

I think this is predictable.
Last edited by vincecate on Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
John
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Re: Financial topics

Post by John »

Labor costs fell in today's jobs report. That's the driver of
inflation/deflation, not the price of gold. There's still no sign of
inflation in sight, after years of having to listen to people insist
that hyperinflation is just around the corner.

I cannot imagine any likely scenario where the dollar falls 20-40%
overnight against Asian currencies. With the possible exception of
the Yen, Asian currencies, including the yuan, are worse off than the
dollar.

John
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