Societal collapse

[jdcpapa]

I watch a sampling of MSNBC programming, but do not take notes. When Luttig and Tribe appeared they quoted a more formal article, but they made a more populist presentation. Try https://www.msnbc.com/ali-velshi/watch/ ... 1177797850 if you really want to chase down the formal paper.

I watched the referenced Velshi interview the other day and again this morning. In the opening, Luttig states that the constitution does not lend itself to sound bites. However in this instance he says it does, as Article 14 section 3 forbids the former president from holding office again. Specifically, Trump's conduct constituted an insurrection or a rebellion or aid and comfort. He cites two other professors who have concluded that this was the original intent of section 3.

Let's not forget: The FBI has found no evidence that Trump was directly involved in organizing Capitol-riot violence, it also found little evidence of an organized plot to overturn the election results, and "ninety to ninety-five percent of these are one-off cases,". Neither Jack Smith nor Fani Willis have levied charges of insurrection, sedition or aiding and abetting same.

At about 7:22 of the interview, Tribe states his position as follows: Amendment 14 (3) operates by itself. The indictments against Trump are not evidence in support of its use to disqualify Trump. Because Trump stated that the electoral count should be stopped and he blames Pence for not carrying out his duty to do so, he should be disqualified to be president. Tribe calls on each state's Secretary to invoke the amendment on that basis.

Derchhwitz claimed the disqualification clause can’t work. It did work at a time the amendment authors were alive.

Dershowitz sides with the FBI concluding that there was no insurrection on January 6.

Some of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were found guilty of seditious conspiracy. This indicates participation in an insurrection.

No it does not. Look up the definition of each. They are separate crimes.

A New Mexico judge removed an officer as he was at the Capitol on January 6, and found the event to be an insurrection.

Curious given the evidence and facts.

Admittedly, the DoJ has been slow in going after the White House bunch, but that is changing. While Jack Smith is building a case for speed and thus is sticking with other charges that can be more easily made, the Georgia RICO case will cover the lack.

The Georgia case will be played out on You Tube.

The bits about who showed up at the incitements and the lack of violence were covered by several MSNBC programs. While the talking heads were pointing out the small size and lack of violence, the cameras were panning the area of the courthouses to confirm the reporting. I guess you get news from other sources who did not mention it? MSNBC was also big on reporting Trump’s calls for edged confrontations for the first two indictments, and the lack in subsequent cases. I personally thought the numerous security people at all four events were overkill. If security was insufficient on January 6, no more.

Noted.

I guess this is part of the difference between Earth One and Earth Two. You can get news censored to emphasize the opinion of the news source. In the recent Fox v Dominion lawsuit, Murdock suggested they tell their audience what they want to hear. It is not about red and blue, it is about green. Build your audience share to charge more for ads. Thus, during the discovery phase Dominion found memos by Fox hosts which showed blatantly contemptuous opinions of their guests which did not show up on air. While the MSM is somewhat more honest in their reporting, I suspect many outlets of showing a firm bias supporting the blue vantage points, for much the same reason as Fox.

Noted

[Bob Butler]

Some of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were found guilty of seditious conspiracy. This indicates participation in an insurrection.

No it does not. Look up the definition of each. They are separate crimes.

The text of the law via Wiki...

In the United States, seditious conspiracy is codified at 18 U.S.C. § 2384:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

I do note no use of the word 'insurrection', but what is described seems to pretty well define an insurrection. I note Mirriam Webster defines insurrection as

: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

I also note U.S.C. § 2383. Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

1994-Pub. L. 103–322 substituted "fined under this title" for "fined not more than $10,000".

So seditious conspiracy and insurrection are in the US Code in different sections, but either or both would apply to the events of January 6, the fake electors, and other parts of the Georgia RICO.

Then there is the 14th Amendment section 3.

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

This would hold true with no conviction for sedition or insurrection. Note, the scholars are advocating removing Trump's name before the Georgia trial.

[jdcpapa]

So seditious conspiracy and insurrection are in the US Code in different sections, but either or both would apply to the events of January 6, the fake electors, and other parts of the Georgia RICO.

Think of sedition and insurrection this way: sedition is a mental intent to overthrow the government and insurrection is the physical action taken to overthrow the government. But insurrection is moot and sedition has been muted so says Jack Smith, Fanni Willis and the FBI.

[Bob Butler]

So seditious conspiracy and insurrection are in the US Code in different sections, but either or both would apply to the events of January 6, the fake electors, and other parts of the Georgia RICO.

Think of sedition and insurrection this way: sedition is a mental intent to overthrow the government and insurrection is the physical action taken to overthrow the government. But insurrection is moot and sedition has been muted so says Jack Smith, Fanni Willis and the FBI.

As I see it, the events of Jan 6 would trigger all three of the above. Smith went for other things. Willis will be a bit late. The immediate question is whether the attorney generals and the Supreme Court push the 14th. I don't have anything to add.

[J P]

BB and his ilk don't want 'justice'; they want 'JUSTICE', that is the BLM kind of justice: bringing down the man anyway possible and getting lots of free stuff, either from the government or through street violence and theft. They want Stalinist show trials and gulags.

Understand that, and you are already home.

[Guest]

Everyone knows what the problems are, but it is a crime to express it. We must speak in code. Let me try.

1882 demographics were very different. The cities have been flooded with the 3rd world and have become 3rd world. Shockingly violent crime has been imported into the UK by clueless, liberal dolts who have now fled into the countryside and left the rest of the population to die in the cities. The UK has imported millions of unskilled and violent migrants (mostly military age males) that lack the ability and work ethic to contribute to a modern country. And they prowl the streets looking to take what they are unwilling to work for. The tax base is being broken under all of the dead weight. Hiring quotas and wokery are destroying once highly profitable and innovative companies. Universities have been corrupted and destroyed by political correctness and moral cowardice. How can anyone expect the country to be in any other condition than it is now?

Like ancient Rome, we have enabled our destroyers. The same can be said of the United States.

[Leeds]

I was in the queue in Primark in Leeds the other day (children demanded a visit ). It was one of those airline style snaking queue things that was crammed in near the tills but was basically a 6 lane, 50 person snake . I was spinning around slowly seeing how many other white people were in the queue with me. There were none. Maybe that’s a Primark demographic, more likely it’s because we’re being eliminated in our own country. A white minority in by 2060 is official, I’d say much sooner.

[Bob Butler]

BB and his ilk don't want 'justice'; they want 'JUSTICE', that is the BLM kind of justice: bringing down the man anyway possible and getting lots of free stuff, either from the government or through street violence and theft. They want Stalinist show trials and gulags.

Understand that, and you are already home.

Not sure you labeled it right. Black Lives Matter justice was originally that police should not kill out of prejudice. That seems to have caught. The spree killers these days tend to be civilians, whether targeting minorities or not. Not to say we don’t have other problems. I’d also say the Democrats want rule of law, that insurrection should be punished. Not the same as wanting ‘Stalinist show trials and gulags’.

To get ‘home’, think on the two instincts. Are you going with hate, oppression and killing those who are different, or love thy neighbor? Are you for spree killing, censorship and conflict, or sanctuary cities and working to improve the economy? That is the appropriate lens, or at least the one I would use. You could make up imaginary unflattering motivations of the other side, or ask someone from the other side their motivations.

On other topics, the long discussion of the 14th Amendment above doesn’t really matter. In a crisis, the progressive faction wins, the conservative viewpoint collapses. This time around, the 2024 civic generation efforts to address reproductive health care, spree killing, rule of law, attacking climate change, etc, will cause a belief in oppression, hatred and conflict to fall aside. The question is whether the Republican Party can survive. The 14th Amendment is one way of clearing MAGA from the picture. It gives a chance for the Reagan Bush Bush unravelling mindset to make a comeback against the Trump crisis approach. It creates a question of what sort of person will lead the Republican Party.

Sarah Palin and Trump have been the only two people that seem able to connect with the Republican base and fight the older unraveling pattern. As long as Trump is alive, I don’t see a possibility of a third person taking over. Trump has no reason to let his influence fade. Even in a jail cell, he could hang on the the Republican base voters, thus shooting the Republican Party in the foot. Still, if the 14th Amendment were invoked, the Republicans still have to nominate somebody. I don’t see the new party leader being DeSantis. His campaign seems to be dying. None of the others seem a threat yet to Biden, but somebody might try to pull the party away from MAGA.

This is not to say the Reagan Bush Bush mindset could return. Sarah Palin started the crisis mindset with a distrust of the wealthy. Trump continued it by embracing prejudice and government enforcement of religious doctrine, not to mention insurrection. There is arguably a need for a party that is conservative overall, but rejects the influence of the wealthy and supports rule of law without embracing the rejection of minorities, censorship and insurrection. Not sure if any of the current candidates fit that bill, but our system suggests that some second party has got to exist to confront the Democrats. The 14th if invoked could create a little wiggle room for the Republicans to hang on to being that other party.

[jdcpapa]

The immediate question is whether the attorney generals and the Supreme Court push the 14th.

A federal judge in South Florida dismissed a lawsuit challenging Donald Trump's eligibility to be president in Florida under the 14th Amendment.The plaintiffs do not plan to appeal. Trump is facing similar 14th Amendment challenges in other states, including one in New Hampshire this week that is not expected to succeed.
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/trump ... d/1132976/

[Cool Breeze]

Everyone knows what the problems are, but it is a crime to express it. We must speak in code. Let me try.

1882 demographics were very different. The cities have been flooded with the 3rd world and have become 3rd world. Shockingly violent crime has been imported into the UK by clueless, liberal dolts who have now fled into the countryside and left the rest of the population to die in the cities. The UK has imported millions of unskilled and violent migrants (mostly military age males) that lack the ability and work ethic to contribute to a modern country. And they prowl the streets looking to take what they are unwilling to work for. The tax base is being broken under all of the dead weight. Hiring quotas and wokery are destroying once highly profitable and innovative companies. Universities have been corrupted and destroyed by political correctness and moral cowardice. How can anyone expect the country to be in any other condition than it is now?

Like ancient Rome, we have enabled our destroyers. The same can be said of the United States.

Notice that that happens to me on this website. I think if I mention the name "Jesus Christ" again, the "moderator" is going to remove the comment for being ... wait for it ... "anti semitic"!