Abortion

[Bob Butler]

Good grief, Bob. People aren't supposed to have kids because it's too hard? Is that the candy ass liberal justification for abortion?

In my greater family we have had lots of kids but no abortions that I know of. Kids are not hard, but considered a blessing. We have problems, but we solve them, work through them, not whining about them endlessly. Life is good, not hard.

A few weeks ago my uncle died, and I went to the memorial service. I wound up showing my genealogy book to two others, This included a direct link to four people on the Mayflower. (Ironically, we met at the restaurant Alden House, but my link to John Alden of the Mayflower was on the other side of the family. Also, my niece mentioned in the last note descended from the same four on both sides of her family.) They were fascinated by the page on British royal family around the first Elizabeth’s time. There were also the links to three presidents (Adams, Adams and Lincoln).

It was a bit odd, though. The two I showed the book to were an asian and a latino. I happened to know we had no hereditary link to either group. Turns out one cousin who couldn’t have children had gone to an adoption agency for kids needing asylum. Blessings all around. Nice well adjusted and seemingly well paired young adults.

If you choose problems you can handle, avoid ones you can’t, life is good. It seems you chose otherwise, to ignore problems, to avoid seeing them solved, ran into some unsolvable problems. Not so good.

Read S&H. America has had her crises. We worked through them. In solving them, we found three new births of freedom, currently working on a fourth. Those who wanted the problems to continue, for society to remain the same, collapsed. Those that tried to solve the problems did solve them. Reading the tea leaves, we seem to be following that pattern again.

You can wail all you want on your fall from the cliff about how you are collapsing. Look for me on the top of the cliff, shaking my head, sighing.

[Higgenbotham]

Good grief, Bob. People aren't supposed to have kids because it's too hard? Is that the candy ass liberal justification for abortion?

In my greater family we have had lots of kids but no abortions that I know of. Kids are not hard, but considered a blessing. We have problems, but we solve them, work through them, not whining about them endlessly. Life is good, not hard.

It's good to know that you have come around to seeing that abortions are not needed in your family or in any other family.

Also, it's good to know that you are continuing to stay tuned to all the threads in the Generational Dynamics Forum so that you can stay abreast of the most relevant information available on what is happening in the world.

[Bob Butler]

Good grief, Bob. People aren't supposed to have kids because it's too hard? Is that the candy ass liberal justification for abortion?

In my greater family we have had lots of kids but no abortions that I know of. Kids are not hard, but considered a blessing. We have problems, but we solve them, work through them, not whining about them endlessly. Life is good, not hard.

It's good to know that you have come around to seeing that abortions are not needed in your family or in any other family.

Abortion remains a difficult problem. Those who would apply a one size fits all policy totally ignoring the situation a mother is in are reprehensible.

Also, it's good to know that you are continuing to stay tuned to all the threads in the Generational Dynamics Forum so that you can stay abreast of the most relevant information available on what is happening in the world.

I generally also watch one or two MSNBC segments most nights. Quite often what I pick up there is reverent to what I post here. I get the feeling that too many posters don't watch blue sources of news, don't really get it.

[Higgenbotham]

When a woman has an abortion, it is a life changing experience.

Whether a woman chooses to have an abortion or not it is a life changing experience. What bothers me is someone who doesn’t know anything about a woman’s situation or life experience is so sure of himself as to force his one size fits all no knowledge of the situation required decision on her. This exemplifies unspeakable callousness and cruelty. To me, this is a philosophical academic exercise. To her, it emphatically is not, which should not be forgotten.

You are ever so ready to impose difficult experience on others. Have you contemplated kindness?

My niece married a few years ago and decided not to have children. Recently... whoops. I can be pleased with an expanding family in spite of her slightly advanced age, but it should be her decision while consulting her physician and husband, not some politician's who neither knows or cares about her situation.

To the rest of your comment, as underlined. I have gone through all of my posts as thoroughly as I can. The following are all the significant comments I have made about abortion, from first to last.

What I don't see in any of my comments is anything resembling the following:

1. That Roe v Wade should or should not be or have been overturned
2. That abortion should or should not be legal
3. That any uniform state sponsored prohibition or requirement on abortion be imposed.

Feel free to continue looking, but I don't find it and don't believe that you will find it.

As Rome declined and fell, it is thought infanticide became accepted practice perhaps similar to abortion becoming accepted practice in the US, as Roe v Wade corresponds to the peak in US domestic oil production, the dissolution of Bretton Woods (the international gold standard) and the rise of parasitic arbitrage and derivatives trading.

Birth control is a lot easier these days than 80 years ago.

Abortion is legal.

The top executives of more than 180 companies have signed a letter that says abortion is essential in order for people to
be successful in their businesses.

Reminds me a few years ago Pelosi said food stamps are keeping this economy going. Now we see that top executives of more than 180 companies agree that abortions are keeping this economy going. One reason would probably be that abortion is cheaper for their health care costs than encouraging an employee to take a pregnancy to full term. It begs the question of whether pregnant employees are pressured to have abortions at these (and other) firms and, if so, how that fits into their definition of equality. Just putting your name on such a letter is a form of pressure.

It's also my belief that Bob felt himself very clever in his ridiculous discussion of "sentience" and trying to use that to justify moving the line on abortion from one year after birth to minus 3 months in an attempt to fool people into thinking that he was being "conservative" and "reasonable".

In my opinion, the issue of abortion can only be intelligently debated within a larger social context.

One thing that would really alleviate the contentiousness of the abortion issue would be for the country to have an honest discussion about viable options for young people to support families (jobs for 18-25 year old men that would support a family without the wife working, in particular), but the country as a whole is not honest enough, intelligent enough or mature enough to admit that Ross Perot and Donald Trump were right about free trade agreements and Bill Clinton and Al Gore were wrong, which is the first step in opening up such a discussion.

If this is true (and I'm skeptical about this too), this effect of abortion on the health of the future population did us no favors.

I don't think humans are capable of making absolute moral determinations either as individuals or as a group, yet for many things for which we are incapable, we find ourselves in situations where we must have a view. Having said that, I personally believe every human consists of a body and a spirit, and when a person willfully engages in sexual activity, that person has a duty both to a higher power and to the spirit that will enter any resulting baby to keep it alive. Reason being, I believe a spirit may have been destined or assigned to enter a specific body at a specific time for reasons that I as a human can't possibly understand and it's not for me to defeat the intended purpose or plan by aborting my baby.

For many years, there was sort of a social contract put into place where young people understood that the rules of the game were that, first of all, as mentioned previously, family supporting jobs are not for the most part available until someone is in their late 20s and there are hoops that need to jumped through in order to get there. Also, as mentioned, while waiting for that job to materialize, it is an acceptable option to use contraceptives, have sex, and if the contraceptives fail it was legal to have an abortion. That was the deal that was struck and though I don't personally agree with it and would not advocate that my daughter follow this path, it is what happened, and the alternatives for young people who choose not to follow this path or who can't are, frankly, not great either. If conservatives are going to take away abortion rights, then there should have been a head start on some way for this larger issue to be addressed. It's possible, though, that when the Boomers move out of the work force that this could take care of itself on its own, at least to some extent.

As an example of the above, since abortion is the topic, my guess is that blacks resent Planned Parenthood coming into their communities and encouraging abortions. In other words, the aspect of "white culture" being imposed would be thought to be the "white culture" that says abortion is OK and should be made readily available to everyone.

I would never suggest that a woman get an abortion. But, similarly, when a woman has an abortion, it is a life changing experience, no pun intended. My first real education about abortion was to read what women who had abortions had to say about their decision to have one many decades after doing so. The accounts were truly heart rending. Rather than have technical discussions about abortion, I would suggest, similar to my suggestion about experiencing what race and culture truly are, for young people particularly to start there.

Good grief, Bob. People aren't supposed to have kids because it's too hard? Is that the candy ass liberal justification for abortion?

[Navigator]

I would never suggest that a woman get an abortion. But, similarly, when a woman has an abortion, it is a life changing experience, no pun intended. My first real education about abortion was to read what women who had abortions had to say about their decision to have one many decades after doing so. The accounts were truly heart rending. Rather than have technical discussions about abortion, I would suggest, similar to my suggestion about experiencing what race and culture truly are, for young people particularly to start there.

This is a very good point. And I would like to expound on it, as I have read/heard similar things.

We are all born with a conscience. This is one of the God given gifts we all get, and one that differentiates humans from animals.

Our conscience will guide us to do the right thing, and will warn us when we are about to do wrong. It also plagues us with guilt when we do wrong, as it tries to help us prevent a repetition of a bad mistake (sin).

We can of course disable our conscience by repeatedly ignoring it. It will then go away, do to our own actions. Truly bad people no longer have much if any conscience.

In every case of a first time abortion I have heard or read about, the woman has serious philosophical difficulty with going through with it. Even those who avow themselves as leftists or believe this is their right. It is because her conscience is trying to stop her from doing it. Because its not only murder, its murdering your own child.

If she goes through with it, the feelings of guilt and remorse are almost overwhelming. Again, because of the above.

Anyone thinking of having an abortion should do what Higgenbotham suggests, talk to somebody that had one. It will haunt you for the rest of your life (plus, I believe, carry severe eternal consequences for you). Just like murders haunt most murderers.

[Bob Butler]

One thing reported in the main stream news that is that many Republican politicians are backing down advocation of reproductive healthcare bans. They don't want to reverse their field. Yet, they are also very aware that the vast majority of voters oppose it. Every time the issue is on the ballot, they lose. Thus, one answer is to remain quiet on the issue, to try to tiptoe around what is a highly controversial issue.

We'll see how that develops.

[FullMoon]

Before you continue pissing and moaning about how bad whites are, I would like to propose a 6 month assignment for you.

In his Civil Disobedience essay, Thoreau suggested one has no duty to solve every problem in the world, but one does have a duty to not be part of any problem. Yes, there are areas with far from ideal cultures in the world. I cannot hope to poof correct everything. One does have a duty, however, not be part of a given problem.

After everything that I've seen here, my perspective that Bob and the Liberal Leftist position is the biggest problem we've got. Radical social change is certainly not what's needed now and the fact that they don't realize this and continue to push the radical agenda is THE biggest social problem currently.

[Guest]

Before you continue pissing and moaning about how bad whites are, I would like to propose a 6 month assignment for you.

In his Civil Disobedience essay, Thoreau suggested one has no duty to solve every problem in the world, but one does have a duty to not be part of any problem. Yes, there are areas with far from ideal cultures in the world. I cannot hope to poof correct everything. One does have a duty, however, not be part of a given problem.

After everything that I've seen here, my perspective that Bob and the Liberal Leftist position is the biggest problem we've got. Radical social change is certainly not what's needed now and the fact that they don't realize this and continue to push the radical agenda is THE biggest social problem currently.

BINGO!

You win a new set of Samsonite luggage!

[Bob Butler]

After everything that I've seen here, my perspective that Bob and the Liberal Leftist position is the biggest problem we've got. Radical social change is certainly not what's needed now and the fact that they don't realize this and continue to push the radical agenda is THE biggest social problem currently.

From my perspective, this crisis's problems are prejudice against blacks and other minorities, police murders against minorities, Insurrection and the threat against democracy, using government to force religious superstition on non believers, Covid deaths, weather related disasters and containment of autocratic forces and terrorists. This time we seem to have more problems than in most crises, even if none of them may be as severe as usual. In a crisis, the problems are solved by the progressives while the conservatives attempt to sustain the old ways and continue the existing problems.

Thus, change is exactly what is needed, and this doesn't mean to ignore pandemics and commit more insurrections.

Can you specify how any of the conservative efforts can be made into positive values? Who needs a speaker anyway?

[Guest]

After everything that I've seen here, my perspective that Bob and the Liberal Leftist position is the biggest problem we've got. Radical social change is certainly not what's needed now and the fact that they don't realize this and continue to push the radical agenda is THE biggest social problem currently.

From my perspective, this crisis's problems are prejudice against blacks and other minorities, police murders against minorities, Insurrection and the threat against democracy, using government to force religious superstition on non believers, Covid deaths, weather related disasters and containment of autocratic forces and terrorists. This time we seem to have more problems than in most crises, even if none of them may be as severe as usual. In a crisis, the problems are solved by the progressives while the conservatives attempt to sustain the old ways and continue the existing problems.

Thus, change is exactly what is needed, and this doesn't mean to ignore pandemics and commit more insurrections.

Can you specify how any of the conservative efforts can be made into positive values? Who needs a speaker anyway?

Thus, change is exactly what is needed, and this doesn't mean to ignore pandemics and commit more insurrections.

Like when leftist protesters stormed the Capitol building last week?